Comment on the post from yesterday:
December 16, 2009 5:38 PM
Anonymous said...
Nando,
I'll take your advice. I will score high on my LSAT and go to the most expensive private low-tier law school on a full ride scholarship.
After I graduate I will not worry too much about the pay scale because everyone pays their dues when they initially start out. Besides, I am not in law just for the money, I will have a PASSION for it.
To everyone: If you are going to law school because you think you will make big money then don't go. If you are going to go to law school because you have a PASSION for law then go. PASSION is what drive success, not greed.
This kid thought it was funny and naive too.
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[image: Elon Musk Threatens Congress Successfully]
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Congress was about to vote on a bill called a “Continuing Resolution”,
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Passion, even if it means red ink!
ReplyDeleteDoes Sallie Mae now accept passion in lieu of money?
ReplyDeleteHope your passion extends to unemployment.
ReplyDeleteI have a PASSION for foreclosure and default. Unfortunately, the collection agencies and foreclosure lawyers don't seem satisfied.
ReplyDeleteI can't figure out why.
There is one big problem with this line of thinking IMHO - what are you passionate about?
ReplyDeleteThe reality is that very few law school grads (even a lot of those that get great grades) get to work in the practice area of their choice. So, even if someone is super passionate about a certain area of the law, the likelyhood of breaking into that area is pretty slim. End. of. story. That individual is likely to be very better in a few years.
Angel,
ReplyDeleteThanks for referring to my comment (from a prior post) and the response from the delusional pre-law lemming.
This kid apparently thinks that passion is the answer. He also makes a classic pre-law mistake, when he cites from WILDLY SUCCESSFUL examples to illustrate his point that anyone can succeed.
Well, kid. Not everyone can make it big in their industry or field. The reality is that very few people "make it" in law. The majority of lawyers and JDs struggle to make ends meet.
Is it worth going six figures in debt for a job that pays $30K-$40K?! You will end up making an extra monthly student loan payment of about $500-$1000, IF you take out $100K in loans for law school. THIS IS A LIKELY OUTCOME of your decision to enter law school, by the way. (I am NOT just throwing these figures out there to scare you.)
http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scripts/loanpayments.cgi
Actually I think the person's plan is not so bad. If you graduate law school without any debt, it's not ridiculous to start a solo practice right away. Or, assuming the economy picks up, to take a low paying job and hang your shingle a year or two later. As far as I know, many people have done this.
ReplyDeleteArguably, the difference now is that (1) law school is a lot more expensive; and (2) many people are going to law school more because they are interested in getting decent white collar job than because they really want to be attorneys.
The biggest weakness I see in the plan is that the "full ride scholarship" will likely be contingent on maintaining a high grade point average. And lower tier private law schools are notoriously competitive.
The thing with being a solo, is you can't do it after law school cause you don't know what the hell you're doing. And.. have you ever opened the yellow pages and looked at the number of attorneys? In some towns, it's 1 attorney to 500 or less people. Most people are honest and hardworking people... they don't need a lawyer. So, economics says there's not enough money to go around.
ReplyDeleteI don't think going solo is as easy as it sounds. It's literally starting a business. Even if you have no debt, you will still need start up maybe even some support personnel. You'll also have to drum up enough of your own business or stay solvent. Doesn't sound easy when you have little to no experience acutally practicing law and zero entrepreneurial skills.
ReplyDeleteI accidentally deleted some of the text in my post. Please delete the last post. It should have read:
ReplyDeleteI don't think going solo is as easy as it sounds. It's literally starting a business. Even if you have no debt, you will still need start up funds to obtain an office, supplies, insurance, licensing and maybe even some support personnel. You'll also have to drum up enough of your own business or stay solvent. Doesn't sound easy when you have little to no experience acutally practicing law and zero entrepreneurial skills.
You might want to check out the video below.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM1QLQShGl4
I'm a solo. I agree that it's not easy. It's all the headaches of practicing law combined with all the headaches of running a business.
ReplyDeleteStill, I think you have a decent chance of succeeding as a solo if (1) you enjoy being a lawyer (i.e. you have passion); and (2) you have some financial staying power.
What is financial staying power?
ReplyDelete"What is financial staying power?"
ReplyDeleteIt's a combination of (1) low expenses; (2) cash flow (e.g. spousal income, help from parents, etc.); (3) savings; and (4) credit.
How many students who graduate from law school have #2 and #3? And these days, #4?
ReplyDelete"How many students who graduate from law school have #2 and #3? And these days, #4?"
ReplyDeleteI don't know, but the first "anonymous" planned to go to a law school which would give him a full ride scholarship.
Yeah, and I plan on starting a family with Halle Berry.
ReplyDeleteWhatever. The truth is that if you have good enough grades and test scores, it is definitely possible to get a scholarship.
ReplyDeleteA friend of mine had a classmate who was admitted to Yale and Quinnipiac but took Quinnipiac because she got a full ride there.
Anyway, it doesn't cost much to take the LSAT and apply to law schools. If you don't get a free ride anywhere, you can just throw in the towel at that point. Which probably isn't such a terrible idea.
A guy at US Bank didn't hire me because he thought I was not passionate enough about the law.
ReplyDeleteYou gotta have passion for the law like you have passion for sex. Am I understanding the lemming correctly?
ReplyDelete"You gotta have passion for the law like you have passion for sex"
ReplyDeletePerhaps not that far, but something like that. After all, most people will have sex with the right person even if they are not paid for it.
If you have "financial staying power" including an income stream from a spouse, parents, good credit, and savings, why would you piss all that away on... a solo law practice???? -- a thankless, heavily regulated business with intense competition where most people struggle to crack the mid-five figs working like dogs?
ReplyDeletethe return on investment is not very good in this business, especially when you add the educational expenses. you're better off doing almost anything else with the same resources.
it seems law attracts a lot of people with something to prove. yes, you can prove you can borrow $100k+ to get a worthless degree, just like all those other fools. yaaay for you.
"If you have "financial staying power" including an income stream from a spouse, parents, good credit, and savings, why would you piss all that away on... a solo law practice???? -- "
ReplyDeleteBecause you enjoy practicing law. Duh.
"the return on investment is not very good in this business, especially when you add the educational expenses. "
That may very well be true, but so what? I've been saying all along that the solo route is defensible if you can graduate law school with little or no debt.
"If you have "financial staying power" including an income stream from a spouse, parents, good credit, and savings, why would you piss all that away on... a solo law practice???? -- "
ReplyDeleteResponse: "Because you enjoy practicing law. Duh."
Typical response from a lemming. Yeah, because enjoyment translates into paying the bills. Some people enjoy playing basketball, but are not very good at it. Should they quit their day job, so they pursue their dream? Additionally, someone with a good income stream would probably be better off using that money to purchase a restaurant or bar (you know, services that there is an actual demand for.)
"Some people enjoy playing basketball, but are not very good at it. Should they quit their day job, so they pursue their dream?"
ReplyDeleteProbably not. The difference is this: A reasonably competent basketball player who enjoys playing basketball has a very very small chance of actually succeeding as a professional basketball player.
On the other hand, a reasonably competent lawyer who enjoys practicing law has a decent chance of succeeding as a solo practitioner. Assuming, as I noted before, that he has some financial resources.
"Additionally, someone with a good income stream would probably be better off using that money to purchase a restaurant or bar"
Restaurants and bars go out of business all the time. One advantage to being an attorney is that you can operate with much lower expenses than a restaurant or bar.
But even assuming that a restaurant is a better investment, some people would just prefer to be an attorney over being a restaurant owner.
No, a reasonably competent lawyer who enjoys practicing law does NOT have a reasonable chance of succeeding as a solo practitioner, even after he drains the spouse, parents, and personal savings.
ReplyDeletewhat part of "too many lawyers" don't you understand?
this ain't no iowa cornfield. if you build it, they will not come. that's the whole point of this and other scambusting blogs.
i have to agree. solos have to fight tooth and nail for clients. when you hang out a sign, the clients don't stampede your door. that has to be the most difficult part.
ReplyDelete:shrug:
ReplyDeleteBased on my experiences, I would say you are wrong. How many people have you known who hung out shingles? How many succeeded and how many failed?
i've known lots of solos. many if not most failed. the ones who hang in there work extremely hard and scrape by. "successful" solos tend to be older attorneys who developed a book of business somewhere else.
ReplyDeletenobody who know a damn thing about the practice of law would find it plausible that a noob coming out of law school is ready and capable of succeeding as a sole practitioner. that's just f'ing nuts, like believing in the tooth fairey.
Most of the solos I have known at least scraped by and a lot of them were reasonably succesful.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, you admit that the the "ones who hang in there work extremely hard and scrape by." That's exactly my point.
If you are the type of person who went to law school not because you are particularly interested in practicing law but because you want to be a well paid desk jockey; if you are more interested in the fancy meals etc., then I guess solo practice is not such a good idea.
scraping by means working 60 or 80 hard hours a week, to make maybe, maybe 40k. and they don't seem particularly happy to me. those are the lucky ones. is a "fancy meal" is anything better than applebees or pizza hut?
ReplyDeleteactually as a matter of fact, i do expect that if i take myself out of the job market for 3 additional years, and borrow >$100k, and work like an ass, I would be reasonably well compensated such that ten years later i don't have months where the rent is paid with credit cards and I can eat out once in a while. if i wanted a vow of poverty i'd have joined the priesthood.
take criminal law for example. get a DUI here (mid size east coast city), you will get twenty pieces of direct mail instantly from DUI lawyers who scan the blotter. the phone book has at least 1000 more. they're just not making bars, drunks, and cops as fast as they're making lawyers here.
I guess you're the type that will go to law school because you're weak at math. Or you're so arrogant you think you can just will yourself to success in a solo practice (!) because you've mastered the rule againt perpetuities. You will get what you deserve.
Lol, I have been a solo for more than 5 years now.
ReplyDeleteIs it that bad, then?
ReplyDeleteNo it's not so bad. I'm the commenter who has been defending solo practice.
ReplyDeleteSo if you have graduated undergrad with no job prospects and are currently in a minimum wage job, is it a bad idea to go to law school?
ReplyDeleteYES! You could be in the same position post-law school + tons of debt. It's better to be at ZERO than -120K.
ReplyDelete