USNWR: Don't Overemphasize Ranking When Choosing Law School

Kaplan did a study to determine what dumb lemmings use to choose a law school.  The report revealed:

30 percent of test takers say that a law school's ranking is the most critical factor, followed by geographic location at 24 percent; academic programming at 19 percent; and affordability at 12 percent. Only 8 percent of respondents consider a law school's job placement statistics to be the most important factor.

USNWR isn't happy with the overemphasis on their rankings stating:
The U.S. News Best Law Schools rankings spotlight the country's academically excellent law school programs in many areas. However, they should be used by prospective students as just one tool in the process for picking the best school for them. Many other factors that cannot be measured need to go into such an important decision, including the overall cost, location, course offerings, school culture, job prospects, advising or mentoring opportunities, and campus life.

I read this tidbit as follows:  give all law schools a chance!

Yah right.  Ranking is the only thing that matters to Big Law--arguably the ultimate end result for many law students.  Let's go through the factors that USNWR focuses on:

overall cost: important.  But one must note that the cost has no correlation whatsoever of cost with quality of education.  So you could pay out the ass for a TTTT education and pay less for a T25 education.  Or you could pay very little for an unaccredited school, which is definitely worse than paying for Harvard or Yale.

location: important, but no so much if you go to a T14.  A T14 degree will travel all over the United States.  However, a TTTT education is arguably a regional degree--if that.  Case in point, New York Law School.  Probably not worth it in New York, and worth less outside of New York.

course offerings: Not important at all.  Law school is boring and bland, whatever class you take.  Furthermore, many of the classes listed in the catalog are not offered EVER.  Or they are offered so infrequently, that you will never get into the class.  Also, although your GPA is supremely important--employers don't give two shits what classes you take.  If you take many classes on entertainment law or labor law, that does not equate a job in entertainment law or labor law--because no one cares.

school culture:  Who cares and how are you to figure that out without going?  My Tier One school advertises itself as being a small and intimate law school environment with friendly professors.  I even spoke to hired guns (students) that lied about the school's culture.  It was small, but that's where the description ended.  I never met so many snobby students and professors in my life.

job prospects:  Once again, with law schools lying through their teeth about employment stats, how are you to know.  The only way you can be certain that you have job prospects is by going to a T14 or, arguably, a T8 school.

advising or mentoring opportunities:  Once again, who the hell cares.  Even the shittiest of the shit law schools will claim to have mentoring opportunities.  After all, there is no shortage of graduates.  It's dumb to make a decision based on this.  If you go to a T14, it may be unnecessary--because you'll have something better, a well-connected alumnae base.

campus life:  You already went to college.  Grow the fuck up.  I don't care if Harvard or Yale have the lamest student life out there--that is the appropriate law school to go to.  This should not be the basis of any adult decision.

Maybe USNWR is trying to take the heat off of their roll in the demise of tens of thousands of people every year.  Maybe they feel badly that TTTT schools get the shaft.  This is a load of bull honky and is to be disregarded.

Yale of fail.

What the hell is this snake thing?

A Must Read Letter

A BIDER fan sent in a letter that is a must read. If this was made into a youtube video it would likely go viral because this person tells some uncomfortable truths about our education system and the state of the nation. I'm sorry that so many of our readers had a horrible school and job search experience after wasting so much money. Good luck and YES definitely think about leaving the country because you deserve better than living at home unemployed for the next decade. There are volunteering and teaching programs in Asia, the Middle East, and Europe that cover health care, housing, and airfare. Look into it!

Dear Angel, Hardknocks, and BIDER readers,

I did not go to law school. I received my Masters degree last year and have been unable to find a full time job. I live with my parents and work temp jobs when I can find them. I am seriously considering moving to another country as Angel and Hardknocks have suggested. The United States will unlikely recover from years of corporate and political corruption and mismanagement that continues to this day. Your JD or Ph.D will not change the damage that has been done to our country's infrastructure and it will not get you a job. I want to advise any college student reading this to take Angel and Hardknocks seriously when they tell you not to attend law school. Also think twice about getting a graduate degree in most disiplines. Maybe you will be unemployed for a while but it is better to be an unemployed college graduate than an unemployed JD or Ph.D after spending countless years in school with $200000+ in loans to pay back.

I have agreed with Hardknocks that education is important in the development of one's mind and understanding of the world. However, higher education has become a Ponzi scheme. It is no longer about educating students but about stealing as much money the universities can get away with charging to pay for unnecessary renovations and give their employees corporate wages all in the name of profits, fake prestige, and US News & World Report rankings. It is a business as corrupt as Goldman Sachs and the so-called academics who make corporate sized salaries have the same amount of sympathy for their victims as Bernie Madoff. I was astonished at how little the administration at my school cared about the student body. They did not take the job search seriously enough and career services has not extended their hand to help the majority of last year's grads find jobs. This is just my personal experience but after reading the law scam blogs this type of attitude seems to be common with administrators and deans at most graduate schools. The money they make is a crime when they know so many of their students will end up jobless and with crushing debt. How can they live with a clear conscience? It's dispicable.

Everything from campus news to the career fair is a public relations stunt. I heard from other students that the employers at our career fair were there only as a favor to career services. They were not serious about giving anyone a job. Most of my classmates did not find a job through the career fair. We were angered that we had wasted our time and money to buy a new suit and print out a hundred resumes only to hear the same thing over and over again: "We're not hiring." So why are you here? Career services had their cameras ready and bragged in a blog post with photos and video about how so many employers came to the career fair. They forgot to mention that no one ended up with a job offer.

I personally cannot wait for the tuition bubble to burst and some of these schools close down for good. Only then will these deans and adminstrators feel what it is like to be unemployed. Or will they purchase a more powerful marketing team to fool the next generation of students? The education industrial complex and the media have successfully brainwashed middle class parents and students at a young age to be ashamed of occupations that use one's hands or don't require an advanced degree. They push students to go to college and ignore signs that some students would do better off as a plumber or electrician. I would love to have one of those jobs right now.

The law school scam movement is one of the few grassroots movements to take on the education industrial complex. College students should feel lucky to have this resource on the web. Those of us several years older did not get honest advise and now our dreams have been destroyed because we chose to further our education. When I listen to politicians and businessmen giving commencement speeches about the importance of an education and doing good in the world, I only hear lies and hypocrisy. These are the criminals who stole money from taxpayers, caused irreversible environmental and economic disasters, continue to send our young men and women to kill and be killed in foreign lands, and have never helped a poor soul in their life unless it's for a photo op. It's sickening but this too is part of the university's publicity stunt.

Don't make the same mistake we did and don't allow these crooks to take any more of our money. They have destroyed an entire generation. The skeptics and non-believers who criticize the law school scam movement should watch their backs because any one of you can be out of a job tomorrow. There is a thin line between the middle class and poverty for most Americans.

In Solidarity,
A Victim

Fourth Tier Dean Explains Why You Should Attend His Law School

I hope the admitted applicant did due diligence before turning in his deposit to Hamline and found the law scam blogs in time to save him from his demise. The applicant sure as heck won't get the truth by asking Hamline admissions why the school is ranked in the fourth tier and the actual number of Hamline graduates who find jobs that will pay off their $33,022/year tuition.

In March, I wrote a post entitled, Why Are You Taking the Bar Exam?, and included an interview featuring students from Hamline Law and other third and fourth tier Minnesota law schools who had not secured a job after graduation. One Hamline Law grad even admitted that he was contemplating going back to school to get an accounting degree. You know, something that will actually help him find a job. Here is the video again:

The Hamline dean is correct in one respect when he tells the admitted applicant that "unless you're considering an elite law school within the top 20, your success as a student and professional will not depend on the pedigree of your law diploma". It won't matter because most students outside of the top 20 will never find a lucrative career in the law. People who graduated from top 20 law schools can't even find jobs anymore. Second tier, third tier, fourth tier - they are all toilet schools. Not only are these schools a bad investment but they can actually destroy your chances of getting a lucrative job in another field. Hopefully this admitted applicant and others will come to this realization before they send in their tuition check this summer.

More Rankings from the ABA. Who Cares?

A fan of our blog sent along an email they received from the New York Bar Association. This is what - we'll call our fan, Unemployed, Esq - had to say:

I don't even know why I opened the below email since I usually delete anything from the NY Bar but I accidentally clicked this and was like WTF?!?!? Why do I care about the US News and World Report ranking law firms at the local, state, and national level. SERIOUSLY? This is the biggest concern right now? Why does this matter when nobody can even get a job? I stopped reading it after the second paragraph but I just had to share.

Thanks for sharing your outrage, Unemployed. I was about to write a rant for this but you pretty much said it all. The New York Bar Association clearly cares two shits about the thousands of laid off attorneys and unemployed law school graduates in their state. You said it, Unemployed. Who cares about rankings when we have an unemployment crisis to deal with?

Is this all the law school lemmings and the ABA really care about? Rankings at the local level?! Who needs that kind of information besides the law school lemmings who will brag about getting into the 2nd highest ranked law firm in Podunk? And what about pretending that they don't know why the law school rankings are flawed? As if the ABA and law schools are innocent of helping produce these rankings. This just looks like another opportunity for the ABA to work with USNWR and Best Lawyers to put out falsified information about employment statistics and earnings at law firms. The letter is posted below. Thoughts?

Office of the President

Dear Unemployed, Esq.:

I am writing to follow-up on an e-mail I sent you on February 17, 2010, to advise that the American Bar Association adopted a resolution sponsored by the New York State Bar Association directing the ABA to examine efforts to rank law firms and law schools. A number of people have said that they did not see the earlier e-mail so I am writing again. You can read the earlier e-mail by clicking on www.nysba.org/lawfirmlawschoolranking.

The resolution requiring the ABA to study law firm rankings arose out of the efforts by US News and World Report working with Best Lawyers to publish for the first time a ranking of law firms at the local, state and national level. The ranking would be like the current ranking done by US News for law schools with law firms being ranked as one, two and three on down in each community.

It continues to come to my attention that many of the law schools are concerned that there is a significant random error in law school rankings based upon a flawed methodology. Our concern is that if the same problems of validity, reliability and volatility in ranking law schools occur in the ranking of law firms, the reputations of law firms will be damaged in their community if they are unfairly ranked in relationship to others with the danger of present and future clients being misled.

The proposed rankings by US News and Best are based in part upon information to be provided by law firms at the request of US News including client lists, how partner compensation is calculated, how fees are calculated, the size of matters handled and other otherwise confidential or proprietary information.

Law firms can decide whether to provide information for ranking. We continue to urge caution in deciding whether to do so. There is a choice to be made. Law firms may choose not to submit information and advise their clients and the public that they are not participating in any ranking program until the completion of the ABA study. It is anticipated that the ABA will speak out and provide guidance on this issue based upon the Resolution referred to at the outset of this letter. The New York State Bar Association shall continue to encourage the ABA to do so expeditiously so that lawyers throughout the country can be guided by its findings. We anticipate that we will be joined by other State Bar Associations in this effort.

I take this opportunity to thank past State Bar President, A. Vincent Buzard, and other members of our Association who took part in our efforts to bring this before the American Bar Association and who continue to work with the ABA on this important matter.

Best regards,

Michael E. Getnick
President, New York State Bar Association
Getnick Livingston Atkinson & Priore, LLP

Has Anyone Ever Heard of Bowen Law School?

Or Duquesne University for that matter? These schools were ranked in the top 25 law school writing programs by U.S. News and World Report. Really, what is the point of a writing program ranking? We all know that rankings outside of the top 20 law schools are worthless. Creating another ranking is just throwing third tier schools a bone to use in their propaganda to fool more students into believing they attend a school worthy of taking out a $100k loan.

From Arkansas Business:

For the fourth time in six years, the UALR William H. Bowen School of Law was ranked in the top 25 law school writing programs by U.S. News and World Report.

Bowen's legal writing program was ranked No. 22 in this year's report, tied with the University of Michigan, Marquette University, and Duquesne University's writing programs.

In addition to Bowen's standing as one of the top legal writing programs in the country, the school's part-time law school program was ranked No. 38.

"These rankings reinforce our belief that UALR Bowen School students receive a first-rate legal education," said Dean John DiPippa. "We work day-in and day-out to share our values of professionalism, public service, and access to justice with students and the larger legal community."

So why did I hear through the grapevine that several graduates of one of the top ranked law school legal writing programs according USNWR were the worst writers in their office? Unless there is a correlation between where a law school is ranked in this survey and its hiring rate, this particular ranking is worthless to students. Most law schools only offer one or two required legal writing classes. Beyond that required class, it really depends on the individual student's writing ability. It doesn't matter if your school is ranked first or fiftieth in the writing program ranking. Seriously, USNWR needs to stop with this bullshit. A toilet is still a toilet no matter how fancy you try to make it out to be.

Running Around Like Chickens Without Heads: MU School of Law

Today is the big day.  U.S. News and World Report  released law school rankings for 2011.  My alma mater has slipped 5 spots since I've graduated.  At least I went to a T1 school (and according to me, that means #1 through #50)--but some schools have dropped quite a bit more.  Take University of Missouri University School of Law, for example.  Apparently, that school has slipped from 65 to 93.  Woah!!! That is quite a dive.  To me, it's still a second tier toilet, but it's a big deal to MU Law Students.  I'm just wondering why this happened:


According to the magazine's Web site, the law school ranking methodology is based on a weighted average of 12 factors in four categories: quality assessment, selectivity, placement success and faculty resources. After the factors are weighted, the top school is given a score of 100, after which the rest of the scores are calculated as a percentage of that. The rankings derive from the scores, but sometimes programs tie.


A program's reputation, which is based on expert surveys, accounts for 40 percent of the score. Although placement success is only 20 percent of the score, the refrain at the meeting was that it is a significant weakness for MU, and students worry the slide will continue.

I'm thinking that MU was actually honest about its employment stats.  USNWR states that only 50.7% of 2008 graduates were employed at graduation.  If that's not an honest number, I don't know what is.  I actually feel bad for calling it a toilet, because toilet schools lie and deceive students into attending law school.   If the rankings weren't based on self-reported employment statistics, all of the schools would have suffered similarly and MU would likely be at it's prized #65 spot.  But honesty is not rewarded.  USNWR is a joke.  They have analysts that look at law programs like a science to come up with these stats, but it's a failed experiment.  There's no constant and no quality control.

Don't worry, MU Grads.  All lawyers are suffering across the board equally.  Law firms that traditionally hire MU Grads will continue to do so, unless they don't plan on hiring at all--which is highly likely.  It's a state school and state schools are usually well-received by local employers.  So, maybe the chances of landing a job in Chicago are not as high--but at least you may be able to land a job in Columbia.

So, do not freak.  You're no more screwed than any other law school--whatever their ranking may be.

U.S. News Reports REAL NEWS: Consider the Return on Your Investment, or Lack Thereof, when Considering Law School!

Nothing makes a Thursday seem sweeter than a story on the real prospects of law school grads.  I am hoping some of these research whiz kids run into this article when deciding whether to proceed with taking the LSAT.


Of course, it covers NOTHING that my readers didn't already know.  But here are some gems:

The American Bar Association reports that from 2007 to 2008, average tuition rose 6 percent at private law schools, to $34,298, and 9 percent at in-state public schools, to $16,836. Add in living expenses and pricey books, and at least 80 percent of students now rely on student loans to fund their law education.


It may seem out of touch for law schools to be raising prices in a lousy economy, but it's a reflection of supply and demand. Indeed, an increasing number of people appear willing to take on six-figure debt to get a law degree. In 2009, the number of people who took the Law School Admission Test hit a decade high, up 6.4 percent from the year before. "As long as people keep applying to law schools in record numbers, (a) there's no incentive at all for the universities to charge less for the law schools that are already established, and (b) there's every incentive for other universities to open new law schools," says Elie Mystal, editor of the popular legal blog Above the Law.


Tuition raises have become necessary at many universities, especially top ones competing for higher rankings, according to the Government Accountability Office. The heated competition induces schools to ramp up their programs by hiring better faculty, reducing class sizes, providing enhanced student services, and offering more practical coursework.


Many do not research the real economic costs and benefits of a law degree, says Prof. Herwig Schlunk of Vanderbilt University. "It's kind of blindly accepted that education in general, and legal education in particular, is always worth the money," says Schlunk. "[But] there's a lot of kids who do go to law school who really have no business, at least not as an investment matter, in going."


"In their mind's eye, [law students are] thinking of hitting the lottery and getting one of these $160,000-a-year jobs, and it is a fiction," ... "By and large, it's just like the lottery. You're spending a huge amount of money in the hopes of hitting the jackpot, and there's relatively small chances, and the chances have gotten a lot smaller."


Of course, Lamm the Liar makes an appearance with some bullshit that the deferred associates are getting hired, so the market is improving.  Whatever.  The article also goes into some rant about networking and focusing on the skills you had BEFORE law school when finding a job.  Which begs the question, why did you go to law school to focus on skills you had before law school?


The facts remain, and  there are too many attorneys and it's harder to be a big fish in the ocean than it is in a pond.  However, that colloquialism goes.  I still maintain that I'm lucky with far less than a hundred grand of debt.  The biggest problem with graduating today is the debt load which precludes you from taking whatever salary you'd like.  And ignoring your debt load can severely compromise your future--because you won't be able to buy a house or a car with shitty credit.  

But hats off to U.S. News for its attempt at journalism.  Great job!

The ABA Doing a Whole Lot of Nothing about Law School Rankings...

Let me start off by saying that I absolutely hate the ABA and everything it does and doesn't stand for.  What angers me more than its mere existence, are stories published by the ABA that almost fool me into believing that the ABA is concerned about lawyers--only to find out that they are hiding the ace.  The primary concern always comes back to BigLaw.  Sorry, I don't do card analogies--but you catch my drift.

Ran into this story put out by the ABA. Apparently, the ABA is thinking about... getting to the point where... they may want to study how Law Schools and Law Firms are ranked. It's called: ABA to Study How Law Firms & Schools Are Ranked.  Notice the strategic placing of "Law School" first.

Let me give you the background.  U.S. News & World Report [hereinafter USN&WR] has decided to rank Law Firms in the same manner that they have always ranked Law Schools.  Well, this isn't going to happen until the ABA takes a good long look at their methods.  The ABA was alerted to the fact that rankings could be detrimental, because of its affect on the Law School Community:

“[The U.S. News] rankings have a profound impact on the law schools. The deans hate it,” said past New York bar President Vincent Buzard to the NLJ. “It seemed to us that the ABA should look into the methodology of these rankings and ensure that they are reliable and aren’t based on inadequate data.”

(As a side note, the ADA does NOT allow USN&WR to rank Dental Schools.--I need the source, but I know that to be true from my dealings with the dental community.)

 Apparently, the debate about Resolution 10A was FIERCE. But they voted in favor of the resolution stating "that the American Bar Association examine efforts to publish a national, state, territorial and local ranking of law firms and law schools." And this resolution passed by a narrow margin. This resolution is filled with empty language, promises and inaction, it's almost a non-resolution.  However, contrary to my sixth sense which told me that the ABA is a lying, cheating, scumbag, I felt my heart rate go up at the idea that the resolution might have some bearing on the Law School Industrial Complex.  But then I read on to see that the ABA's primary concern was 'whether “law firms will be induced to change their methods of operations and drive up the cost of legal services to the public in the same way that the cost of legal education has been distorted” based on LAW FIRM rankings. 

So, this isn't about Law Schools at all.  Rather, it's about Law Firms.  But implicit in that statement is acknowledgement that Law Schools have fraudulently driven up the cost of legal education based on rankings.  I have to sort this out in my head. They know about the effects that rankings have on the cost of Law School tuition and they are concerned that Law Firm rankings might have the same effect on the cost of Big Law to Big Business?  Let's solve the problem by dealing with Rankings as it relates to both Law Schools and Law Firms. So, the ABA stands for "American Business Association"???????  Or, are the ABA cronies working as partners in firms that may not make the First Tier Law Firm cut?  Would they still be entitled to T14 law grads--when they start hiring again in a few years?  I frankly don't understand (a) why they are feigning concern about rankings and Law School tuition on this late date and (b) why they are so against ranking Big Law.  What's good for the goose is good for the gander in my opinion.

"In a report accompanying the resolution, the measure’s sponsor—the New York State Bar Association—said “we know, based upon the experience of the U.S. News & World Report’s ranking of law schools, that there will be significant issues regarding the validity of the rankings.”"

Never mind the fact that I don't agree that the rankings propel Law School tuition into the sky.  These guys really need to get off the LSD. Even fourth year toilets are outrageously expensive.  Rankings are based on fraudulent data and even the lowest of the law/low, (i.e. Tom M. Cooley School of Law or Charlotte School of Law) seem to be a good option for law students.  After all, not one law school comes out and says, "30% of our last graduating class found employment.  But of that, 15% are waiting tables, driving cabs, baby-sitting, homeless panhandling."  Fraud... Like this "rankings" section of the Tom M. Cooley where it ranks #12 in the Nation.  I can't even make heads or tails of that Ranking Chart.  Can you?  And don't be fooled by Charlotte's cheap tuition.   They list the tuition per semester.  Is that fraud? I think so. 
 
And when it gets to self-reporting and the USN&WR, it's even worse. 
 
So, although the ABA article was entitled: ABA to Study How Law Firms & Schools Are Ranked--It should have been entitled: "ABA PUTS GAVEL DOWN AT RANKING LAW FIRMS AFTER ACKNOWLEDGING THAT THE SYSTEM OF RANKING LAW SCHOOLS IS RAMPANT WITH FRAUD."