Showing posts with label minnesota. Show all posts
Showing posts with label minnesota. Show all posts

Saturday, July 31, 2010

An Annual Ritual: Minnesota Lawyer Interviews Unemployed TTT Grads Before the Bar Exam



Earlier this year, I wrote several posts based on the 2009 Minnesota Lawyer interview with Minnesota TTT grads who were planning to take the bar exam.



This is what I had to say about the 2009 interview in April of this year:
None of the graduates in the video seemed to have a job lined up at the time of the bar exam. I hope the guy who failed the bar exam twice passed the third time around if only to save himself from wasting more money on test prep courses. But Ms. Guertin from William Mitchell School of Law nails it when she says at 1:02 that passing the bar exam doesn't necessarily mean you're guaranteed a job.

The bar exam will not guarantee anyone a job right now. The only thing that will be easier is finding doc review work and you can make more money than a law graduate who isn't admitted to the bar. That's it. I hear and read about law school graduates who think passing the bar is the golden key to a great legal job. It isn't. Wiser graduates like Mike at Barely Legal (btw, he started blogging again last month after a long hiatus. Welcome back!) decided to save his money and not take the exam.

People will have different opinions on this but I think the bar exam in this economy is a waste of money and time, especially for third tier graduates who never had a chance at finding a good job in a recession. If you end up finding a great law firm job, let them pay for the exam instead. Don't take out another loan from Sallie Mae or Access Group to take the exam. If you fail, consider it a blessing or buy used Barbri books off of Craigslist if you decide to take it again. You have to ask yourself whether more torture and money down the drain is worth it if you're in a state that has a high unemployment rate and little opportunity to find a good paying legal job. I'm curious to know if any of the graduates in the video found jobs after passing the bar.

What I said in April about last year's bar exam takers remains true today for this year's bar exam takers. Here are some important additional thoughts and statistics provided by Scammed Hard who first reported on the 2010 Minnesota Lawyer's "special report" covering the Minnesota bar exam:
Given that the four law schools in this small market spew out 1,000 new grads every year, things must be especially tough for TTT grads trying to find work. Despite its relatively small population, Minnesota boasts the 12th highest lawyer per capita ratio in the Union, with 11.2 lawyers for every 10,000 people. When even your local T-25, the University of Minnesota, graduates more than half of its Class of 2010 without jobs, one can only imagine how much more awful thing must be down in the TTTs, or especially at the local TTTT, Hambone University School of Law.

How long are these people going to allow themselves to be scammed? After suffering through three years and tens of thousands of dollars' worth of hell, just to end up unemployed, it must feel great to be plunking down for bar review and the exam without having the slightest idea about where you will eventually find work. These folks from the lower tiers are, sadly, especially likely to never find work as lawyers. Nando has already given us a trio of excellent exposés about the dismal employment prospects offered by these law school puppy mills. I must grudgingly admire the irrational optimism that these grads display in continuing on the road toward lawyerdom, but as a scamblogger, I know what awaits them. We've had a smattering of commenters from these schools show up on the scamblogs in the past few months, and none of them paints a rosy picture of their class' employment. In fact, they all agree that most of their former classmates are unemployed, indebted, and desperate. Yet the charlatans and book-cookers who run these institutions are still busy tallying the seat deposits and packing the next 1L class in time for the fall semester.
Yes, how long will thousands of students in over-saturated legal markets allow themselves to be scammed out of thousands of dollars for nothing more than the illusion of prestige of having a JD and passing the bar exam? And why aren't mainstream legal news publications like the Minnesota Lawyer asking serious questions about the employment rates of these recent graduates instead of vapid questions like what they had for breakfast or what time they went to bed the night before? What?!? The real question everyone is dying to know is, have you found a job yet? And, how much money in student loans did you borrow on top of the $150k you borrowed for three years of law school to take the BARBRI course?!? If Minnesota Lawyer actually did their job, maybe more 0Ls and law students would think twice before plopping down another $5,000 for no good reason whatsoever. Or they would start asking their law schools questions as to why three years and $150k still isn't enough to prepare students for the bar exam.

Saturday, May 29, 2010

Quotes of the Day (Updated)


The generation before me came to the conclusion I was worth the investment. Maybe my generation is a little too selfish.
- Minnesota Supreme Court Justice Paul H. Anderson who graduated in 1968 with no debt and a 1965 Mustang.


The more urgent question is: What do you tell people who are thinking about going to law school? I don't recommend it to people looking to make a lot of money. ... If you're not interested in helping people in some way or providing service to your clients, it's not for you.
- From the same Star Tribune article, law school shill Niels Schaumann, vice dean for faculty at third tier toilet William Mitchell College of Law in St. Paul, Minnesota.



How about not recommending William Mitchell College of Law to anyone who wants to find a full-time job after spending $52,000 yearly tuition? That way, shills like Schaumann would no longer make an average of $104,832 yearly blaming unemployed graduates for being too greedy.
- HardKnocks from But I Did Everything Right! in response to Niels Schaumman's dishonest and shameful comment in the Star Tribune.


Update, May 30th: A William Mitchell College of Law graduate stopped by with the following comment below. Are you listening Schaumman and WMCL shills? This is one of your many graduates drowning in debt and working for $11 an hour doing temp work. What are you doing about it besides blaming them for being greedy or not hustling enough? How can you sleep at night knowing you make six-figures off the backs of your unemployed graduates and still have the audacity to ask them for contributions?? Thank you to the WMCL grad for stopping by and sharing your tragic story and pointing out that the job shortage is nothing new. It's just that the media is jumping on this story now that the top tier grads are suffering too.

Hope all of our readers are having a relaxing Memorial Day weekend. I'm back to helping out with the backyard BBQ.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for posting this article, Hardknocks. I am a WMCL grad - although I have pretty much severed all ties to that place after the Dean sent me a letter begging for MORE money AFTER I had already made a contribution and stated in his letter, "[Insert my name here], would you really be as far as you are today if not for your law degree?" As you can imagine, this irritated me to no end and I decided to never give one cent to that place again.

As for the gentleman featured in the story, I actually know him. Ironically, right after I graduated from WMCL with HONORS, I was working as a TEMP for $11/hour at the same place where he was working for the summer doing some humiliating clerical type of work. This was back in the early 2000's. He was going off to Korea to be with his girlfriend. Anyway, the reason I mention this is because there was a legal job shortage even back then, but nobody believed it. This is NOT new, people, so I don't understand why everybody acts like this all happened it the last 2 years. I have been out of school for almost 7 years, and a majority of my classmates are drowning in debt and working piddle a$$ jobs just to make ends meet and pay their student loans. It annoys me that suddenly now this is "news" - why wasn't it news seven years ago? Maybe some of these people wouldn't be in the shape they are in, if the media had listened or cared back then!


Saturday, April 10, 2010

Why Are You Taking the Bar Exam?

According to the video below provided by Minnesota Lawyer, 830 law school graduates took the Minnesota bar exam last July. Never having stepped foot into Minnesota, I had never heard of any of the law schools attended by the bar exam takers in the video. I can only assume,without checking USNWR rankings, that none of these schools are considered "top tier" - at least not outside of Minnesota. The Minnesotan who sent me the video also informs me that the Minnesota job market is in the crapper, much like the rest of the Midwestern states, and there aren't any jobs. So why did these students decide to take the bar exam?



None of the graduates in the video seemed to have a job lined up at the time of the bar exam. I hope the guy who failed the bar exam twice passed the third time around if only to save himself from wasting more money on test prep courses. But Ms. Guertin from William Mitchell School of Law nails it when she says at 1:02 that passing the bar exam doesn't necessarily mean you're guaranteed a job.

The bar exam will not guarantee anyone a job right now. The only thing that will be easier is finding doc review work and you can make more money than a law graduate who isn't admitted to the bar. That's it. I hear and read about law school graduates who think passing the bar is the golden key to a great legal job. It isn't. Wiser graduates like Mike at Barely Legal (btw, he started blogging again last month after a long hiatus. Welcome back!) decided to save his money and not take the exam.

People will have different opinions on this but I think the bar exam in this economy is a waste of money and time, especially for third tier graduates who never had a chance at finding a good job in a recession. If you end up finding a great law firm job, let them pay for the exam instead. Don't take out another loan from Sallie Mae or Access Group to take the exam. If you fail, consider it a blessing or buy used Barbri books off of Craigslist if you decide to take it again. You have to ask yourself whether more torture and money down the drain is worth it if you're in a state that has a high unemployment rate and little opportunity to find a good paying legal job. I'm curious to know if any of the graduates in the video found jobs after passing the bar. If any of you are reading this please update us on your job search.

Thursday, October 29, 2009

Minnesota: Hear It From the Horse's Mouth!





Someone actually sat a bunch of Deans down to talk to them about their students' grim futures.

Here is what U.S. News and World Report has to say about these schools:


So, putting it in perspective, University of Minnesota is the only decent law school on the list and the other ones should be ashamed at charging what they do for a lousy education and (by their own admissions) dismal job prospects. Over 30K a year for a 3rd and 4th tier school is criminal. Bernie Madoff has nothing on these schools. They rob poor students of millions of dollars every year.

Some notable quotes include:

"We really think that our students are well-situated to be flexible in this economy."--William Mitchell Dean

"Students who have initiative, who are accustomed to being self-starters...gritty.. can hang out their own shingle... are the ones who will ... succeed."--William Mitchell Dean

"Second Year Students ... are working in some capacity and may not be law-related jobs."--St. Thomas Dean

"Our graduation statistics are usually a little under 50% employed at graduation and we're down about 8 to 9 points from that."--St. Thomas Dean

"We're being aggressive ... bringing in programing on alternative [non-legal] forms of employment."--William Mitchell Dean

"This is about a career that will extend over the next 30 to 50 years... and you're going to have to be more creative."--St. Thomas Dean

"Networking"--Hamline Dean

As you can tell, I find what the 3rd and 4th Tier Deans say particularly offensive.

Let me cut through the bullshit for you...

The Deans of ALL 4 schools are admitting that their graduates will not get hired through traditional means if at all. Rather, the students will have to rely on nepotism (aka networking) or will have to volunteer for a little over a thousand dollars for the experience. Fyi, volunteering under the Dean of Hamline's proposal does not lead to permanent employment. Prospective lawyers may even go to law school to find out that their school's great solution to the shortage of legal jobs is to put you into a position that is not legal (i.e. a job you could have had without going to law school). The one thing that all schools could offer to help their graduates, they are not mentioning--forgiving student loans.

I realize this is just one state, but all of the Law School Deans in that state are admitting to the same failures. The only difference between these Deans and those of the other 49 states is that no one has interviewed the other ones yet. Trust me, things are not drastically different in the state wherein my alma mater lies.

Knowing all this, from the horses' mouthes, why would anyone with half a peanut of a brain go to law school? The only good that can result, is the experience of a nonsensical intellectual exercise and working for a few peanuts.




 

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