Hi Angel,
I came across your blog, and I was hoping you could help me answer a question. When I was a juvenile, I was charged with a possession of alcohol. Then, in the spirit of Halloween, I got really into character and was charged with impersonating a police officer. Those were both juvenile offenses. Both charges were dismissed after I completed some sort of pre-trial intervention a/k/a probabation. I also received a minor consumption during my rip-roaring college party days.
Either way, I guess I really don't know what to expect, and I would appreciate your input. Thank you for any time and assistance you can lend to this situation.
Sincerely,
Paulette
Posts
It is rumored that my school expels people for lesser indiscretions, even slight violations that may be academic or disciplinary in nature.
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Then the law school dean and staff ought to expel themselves. Almost all law schools lie about their employment stats. Then they have the nerve to demand super high standards of ethical behavior from the students.
As someone who has been in a similar situation let me say this (although mine didn't go into "character and fitness" just a record discrepancy).
ReplyDeleteIn my original law school application, I actually didn't put down a college that I had attended for a couple months before transferring to another undergrad school. Then it came time for the bar and I started to get worried because of all the horror stories. It was a really easy thing to fix at my school.
I went to the registrar and explained the situation. Mine had a form that was essentially an "application amendment" where I basically put down that I forgot to include this in my original law school application. So the school retroactively "fixed" my application to show the data that I had originally left out (maybe its because my school just wanted the money so there were a lot of people there who had done far worse things than I did). Then I reported the school on my bar application as if I had never left it off my law school application in the first place. I submitted my bar app and I was approved by the bar committee.
Now it depends on your school and the state bar you're applying to, so if you have a reasonable and legitimate belief that your school would expel you on the goal line for this then I guess you're right and you should take your chances with the state bar examiners. Mine couldn't give two shits as they had already gotten their 100K out of me so the least they could do was laugh as they sent me into the wasteland of law practice.
To give you some context, I had two good friends at my school with character & fitness problems, stuff like underage drinking/dui on their juvey records, who have gotten into trouble whether they reported it or not.
One passed the bar exam and reported his incidents but has been under the supervision of the bar examiners ever since. It's been a year since he passed the actual exam, and had to do things like attend alcohol classes and take random piss tests, and he still hasn't been approved to practice.
Another friend of mine passed the bar exam in 2 states. In his home state and where we went to law school. He had a minor violation of a city ordinance in his home state that he didn't report on his home state bar app. Passed the bar and was approved in his home state.
When he applied to his 2nd state, he was red flagged for not reporting it (which amazed both of us as to how they even found it as the record was expunged, it was a city ordinance violation almost a decade ago and his home state didn't find it or flag him for it). In the letter he got, they indicated it wasn't so much his conduct as the fact they they believed he was trying to conceal things from the bar examiners. So he's expecting a similar long "review" process by the bar examiners (it's really a load of horseshit as they've also redflagged classmates of mine who just got divorced and subjected them to further review, which by the way involved non-refundable fees payable to the board but I'm sure money plays no part in their decision process).
In that state their bar examiners take the attitude of old testament, southern baptist hellfire and brimstone god when it comes to character and fitness because it's a great way to eliminate people who could legitimately practice and thus limit the number of attorneys that might eat into the 500 dollar foreclosure market.
So I guess my advice is who the fuck knows. But good luck! Seriously, I would see if you could talk to a cool alumni or professor/adviser who you know won't rat you out and see what they think.
Yup... Amend the law school app. The school I went to made quarterly announcements to do this if you "forgot" or "left something out". They won't kick you out, but the bar will have a problem with you if you don't do it. At least in Florida they will.
ReplyDeleteOh for fuck's sake Laura go back to work.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, send her my email address.
ReplyDeleteIf I were in her shoes, I wouldn't say a damn thing. The profession creates this impression that it's some elite organization only populated by people with the most impeccable records and sterling credentials. I wouldn't sweat. If she gets rejected by C&F, consider it a blessing. There should be no rush or anxiety to try to get into this horrid profession.
How do I get in touch with you? I've researched this topic extensively and can provide fairly accurate advice on the situation in your state. But in sum, what it boils down to is this: disclose it, acknowledge your mistake and prove through subsequent behavior that it won't happen again. Of course, then you have the sons and daughters of the wealthy that have been admitted even after failing to disclose such things as: 1) selling 5.6 kilos of cocaine; 2) rape; 3) grand theft; and 4) assault. So if you're plugged in, then sit back and relax...
ReplyDelete10:48 a.m. You can either post your info here or email it to me at angelthelawyer@gmail.com and I will pass it on to her.
ReplyDeleteSomeone sent me almost the exact same question yesterday with different "juvenile indiscretions" sounds to me like a troll with extra time on their hands.
ReplyDeleteIt's probably the same person asking for different opinions. I think that she was sincere. What would a troll have to gain by asking me this. I think it's a legit question. I always thought it was funny that law schools admit people who they KNOW won't make it past C&F. But that's my view point. At the end of the day, it's not an honorable profession.
ReplyDeleteI disclosed everything in my juvenile record, even though neither the law school nor the bar actually could require disclosure. My record was expunged at 15, and I'm pretty sure it shouldn't have been an issue. Even so, I was originally hung up by C&F issues for three months because I didn't disclose a speeding ticket I forgot. The statement of my state's bar examiners was that disclosure (and a statement of penance) will do you little harm, but if your omission comes up in their search, you're in for a substantial delay.
ReplyDeleteBetter to disclose to the Bar. I'm not sure that I'd update anything to the law school, especially if the application is worded "offenses after age 18" or the like. But I don't have that information, and can't make a recommendation based on the wording anyway.
One thing I've learned in years of practice is, when you need it, pay for some legal advice. There are lawyers in your community, wherever it is, who specialize in lawyers' bar problems, ask around to find them. You can start with your local bar association. This is an important question, and you need advice. And pay for it. My DH and I are both lawyers with lots of experience and a big network, and we pay for legal advice when we need it, even though we know many lawyers who would give us "professional courtesy".
ReplyDeleteI had a similar thing happen. Juvy felonies; didn't disclose on law school app because the dean said it wasnt a big deal; got a letter from him stating same; disclosed on bar app; they asked why didnt you disclose on law school app; sent them the deans letter; end of story.
ReplyDeleteI was concerned that the felonies would prevent my admission and went to the bar C&F before attending law school - "hey let me know if I can get in before I drop 100k on a useless degree..." - "well, I can't give you a definite answer but I think you'll be OK - disclosure is more important than what you did, but no guarantees..."
You could always have a 'friend' call the registrar and ask about your situation and the ramifications of amending.
I think full disclosure is always best. Amend the LS app to fully disclose. Eventually, the bar will want to know why you didn't disclose initially - better initially than ever...
Remember, it's not what you did (who cares), its about your character now, which they measure by disclosing everything, in the face of losing your ticket.
Fucking seriously? Lawyers have ethics? Gee the fucker that screwed up a relative's probate didn't seem to have much compunction about lying about the fact that he didn't know shit about probate law, nor did that douche that tucked up my dw med mal case have any issue stealing her settlement. you wonder why we hate attorneys? I could go on but I won't.
ReplyDeleteHi, can you pass with 2 DUI on your record? One was in 2011 and the other was in 2009.
ReplyDeleteI just got labeled an alcoholic by the drug and alcohol counselor during an assessment at my state bar. Yeah. Not good. He said that my criminal record is indicative of alcoholism and that he's going to put that in his report. I withdrew my application this morning. Fuck it. I won't have to say I was formally denied on character grounds and hopefully I can find a state with a more sane policy. DUI conviction (200X); DWI arrest and refusal to blow (200X-expunged; not guilty); pos of paraphernalia (20XX-- expunged; not guilty).
ReplyDeleteI am the CEO of a startup now. Very lucrative. Way better than any one I know who is in the legal profession. I have a lot of cash now to sue people, including the investigator-- who judging by the size and shitty furniture of their strip mall law office is likely going to feel the pinch of this law suit a lot harder than me. :)
How honorable of a profession is this? Elitist scumbag piece of shits that wouldn't know honor if it bit them on their genitals.
Two states are particularly easier to be admitted to as an attorney, Colorado and Missouri. These two states admit by an applicant proving their character and fitness by preponderance of the evidence. All other states use the Clear and Convincing Standard, a higher burden. If your from Florida, forget it. Don't ever go to Florida with CF troubles, it is by far the hardest state in the nation to pass CF. In regards to Colorado, our Law College has a Professor and head of a clinic that killed some people. He got licensed in Colorado first despite being a resident of another state where he killed some people as that state was hard to get into. Be served 7 years in prison, WTF. He was admitted to Colorado bar 10 years after he killed some people and 3 years after leaving prison. He learned the law better than anyone while in prison. Ended up suing his law school, beat his law school in Federal Court, and then it went bankrupt a few years later. Go to Colorado. And I wouldn't tell your law school nor report it to the bar. As long as you didn't cheat on an exam or do anything else that would flag your bar application, a juvenile record that never became a record will not be found on a standard background search. Bar committees only search local police or Court records if the applicant reports a problem or if a very broad search on Lexis Nexis comes up with something, or if you ever had another name, identity or business. As long as you didn't have a business as a sole proprietorship and no other CF flags such as civil shit, unpaid credit cards. You should be able to slither through Colorado or Missouri.
ReplyDeleteTwo states are particularly easier to be admitted to as an attorney, Colorado and Missouri. These two states admit by an applicant proving their character and fitness by preponderance of the evidence. All other states use the Clear and Convincing Standard, a higher burden. If your from Florida, forget it. Don't ever go to Florida with CF troubles, it is by far the hardest state in the nation to pass CF. In regards to Colorado, our Law College has a Professor and head of a clinic that killed some people. He got licensed in Colorado first despite being a resident of another state where he killed some people as that state was hard to get into. He served 7 years in prison, WTF. He was admitted to Colorado bar 10 years after he killed some people and 3 years after leaving prison. He learned the law better than anyone while in prison. Ended up suing his law school, beat his law school in Federal Court, and then it went bankrupt a few years later. Go to Colorado. And I wouldn't tell your law school nor report it to the bar. As long as you didn't cheat on an exam or do anything else that would flag your bar application, a juvenile record that never became a record will not be found on a standard background search. Bar committees only search local police or Court records if the applicant reports a problem or if a very broad search on Lexis Nexis comes up with something, or if you ever had another name, identity or business. As long as you didn't have a business as a sole proprietorship and no other CF flags such as civil suit, unpaid credit cards. You should be able to slither through Colorado or Missouri.
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