HuffPo Comments on Law Degree More Interesting Than the Article

Hattip to Exposing the Law School Scam and Homeless Lawyer Posting From Library for posting a link to a Huffington Post article, Is The Foolproof Law Degree Becoming an Endangered Species?. I'll post the article in its entirety since it is fairly brief:

What if law school is no longer as lucrative as it used to be? And what if procuring funding to obtain a juris doctorate is akin to taking out a subprime loan?

Law firms are cutting salaries and hiring fewer graduates, reports Ameet Sachdev in the Chicago Tribune, which means that a law degree may not be a foolproof way to get a high-paying job after graduation. In addition, ongoing tuition hikes on already-overpriced law school degrees make the prospect of unemployment (and loan repayment) after graduation even more dire. Sachdev writes:

With large numbers of unemployed or underemployed lawyers who borrowed heavily to pay for their educations, legal educators face growing skepticism about the value of a law degree.

Law schools are seeing more applicants than ever before, which only exacerbates the situation. Northwestern Law, for example, only sent 55.9 percent of its graduating class to the largest firms in 2009. As its dean David Van Zandt tells Sachdev, "big law firms will never go back to hiring graduates in droves."

What do you think? If you have gone to/are in law school, what has your experience been?

I recommend that all of our readers comment on the post if you have a HuffPo account, and even recommend to the other commenters to visit the law school scam blogs or create one of their own. Here are some of the comments that I'm totally copying from Exposing the Law School Scam, but you can go to HuffPo to read more. The comments are great and I wish more of these people would create blogs of their own to spread the word. We're the only ones causing the media to start asking questions about the value of a law degree.

colariz 51 minutes ago

4 Fans
I went back to school after a decade in sales/mktg/mgmt, thinking a law degree was the key to further advancement. Graduated from a tier-one school, with mixed academics (near the bottom of my class but on law review, passed the bar on 2nd try). It's now four years after graduation and two years after being admitted, and I still haven't found a full time legal job. Have managed to get by via temp work, contract work, paralegal/secretary gigs, even tried practicing out of my house - but have yet to find that elusive, promised, capital J job (with benefits?) that will allow me to repay the massive loans I'll be carrying the next 20+ years.


It's becoming clear that this was a huge mistake, taking years off from a decent career path to double down on a mortgage on my brain, right before the worst economic collapse of our lifetime. Oops! When I think back on all the advice I received whether or not to attend law school, every person who encouraged me to go ("there are so many things you can do with a law degree!"), not one of them was a lawyer. Every single lawyer I spoke to hemmed and hawed and cautioned against it, but I didn't listen - I heard what I wanted to hear.


The lesson? Unless you can pay cash for the degree, and/or your daddy owns a law firm and has a position waiting for you, DON'T GO.
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bashmentyard 3 hours ago
1 Fans
.....


If you made it to your third year of law school and you're not at a top tier school and no one in your family is a lawyer or has a law practice, yet you think you are going to be able to send out applications and get interviewed and employed, you already drank from the "drink me" bottle and might as well stay down that rabbit hole




lst01 3 hours ago
0 Fans
It is definitely NOT the most "flexible" professional degree. You'd be hard-pressed to find an employer that overlooks your lack of qualifications in favor of a law degree.


In fact, the reverse is true. Most employers think you're "over-qualified" and will promptly throw your resume in the trash.




dogface 5 hours ago


Bottom line: half of all law graduates do not practice law. Of those who practice law, half find something else to do (read that "worthwhile") after ten years.


Suggestion to students: find something you love or like to do. Making excuses for others poor choices or incompetence or greed is not a way to live.



swester 5 hours ago
2 Fans
All I can say - thank goodness this story is finally hitting the mainstream media.


The law schools and their marvelous PR squads can only keep reality at bay for so long.


"Our graduates upon graduation get $160k/yr, and we have a 95% employment rate! So of course it's logical to pay us $160k for a degree!"


Oh, wait, those statistics are completely distorted and outdated? Didn't know that "employment" included unpaid internships and on-campus fabricated "jobs" to boost the bottom line? Whoops, tuition refund deadline has passed!



tindo 5 hours ago
3 Fans
3rd year law student 2 weeks from graduation. What the author states is ABSOLUTELY true. If you arent at a top 15 ranked law school, your chances at employment are limited at best. Not to say if you are willing to travel you wont find a job. It just wont be high paying. Even Pub Defender positions are dry due to budget crunches.


The NALP reports on employment after graduation are utterly false. Most graduates finish school 120,000+ dollars in student debt, and end up working jobs that we could have gotten with our BA's. Because of the Bush Bankruptcy revisions, loan debt cannot be discharged. We'll be poor for life for getting educations.


It gets depressing seeing those who graduated before me work is administrative assistants or in bars making 10-15 bucks an hour after getting law degrees that cost 80,000 dollars in loans. Many are going back to school in utterly unrelated but hiring fields like teaching or health care. Its hard to apply anywhere with a JD, because no one wants to hire people with law degrees for none law work. The assumption is they burnt out or they are drifters who dont know what they want to do or they are overqualified.


I know someone who graduated LS, couldnt find a lawjob and ended up returning to Community college to get a Med Asst Associates. The funny thing is, that degree will get him a job for 1/10 of the price of a JD



KYlawyer 6 hours ago
292 Fans
For those who are thinking of a career in law I have one word, run. The profession is overcrowded and likely to get worse. They won't tell you but many laws schools make a profit on every law student. They charge graduate tuition but it doesn't cost nearly as much, no labs or expensive equipment, to train a lawyer as it does a doctor. So they take as many law students as they can cram into the class.


Salaries aren't what they once were and unless you come from a top law school and finish in the top 5% you aren't going to go to big firm. If you want to make partner you had better be able to make rain and even then you aren't secure. There are a lot of partners that wind up on the streets these days. Small firms don't that pay well and solo practice is a joke these days.


You will work ungodly hours, and sacrifice your family life, (I am 2x divorced), all to face the stress of constantly fighting with other lawyers, judges, your own clients and facing the increasing prospect of malpractice liability and bar complaints from unsatisfied and often unreasonable clients.


Job satisfaction is extremely low. You spend most all of your time pouring over documents or on other boring routine things. About 85% of lawyers, if you push them, will tell you they wish they had done something else.
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TheRapture 6 hours ago
10 Fans
As a 2009 law school grad, I have to agree with this article. I went to a 2nd tier los angeles law school and have had a lot of difficulty finding work after passing the july 2009 bar. I have at least 10 friends who also passed and have been out of work since graduating. I also know some acquaintences who graduated from UCLA and USC law working as law clerks after passing the bar. It is a very scary field to be in right now. I really hope its just the economy but I think the ABA needs to stop accrediting all these law schools. I am one of those lucky ones who found a job, but it does not seem promising considering we are always short of work. If you want to make money, this is definitely not your field.



admrob 6 hours ago
4 Fans
As a 2007 law school graduate and late 2007 admitee, this story is 100% accurate. I want a bailout on my student loans.



Sarnath 3 hours ago
0 Fans
I graduated from UVA Law and passed the bar in 2009 intending to find a job as a public defender, and I've been trying to get hired ever since. Sure there's a lot of injustice around, but there are a lot of unemployed attorneys scrambling for a limited pool of paying positions for public service work.




LLShrute 4 hours ago
0 Fans
...Oh wait...for a second I thought I was a minority, or I came from a family with money and connections. Haha, my bad. I am actually just some peon white person who came from a middle class family, where my dad worked in a factory and my mom was a nurse. Somehow I managed to do well in school and I am about to graduate from a top 50 law school.


Yet 87% of my graduating classmates don't have a job.


What we do have though is over six figures' worth of debt coming due in a couple of months. And for those of us who wanted to go to law school for the right reasons and fight some of the injustices in this country, who will pay our bills and our school debt? Do you think living in America is free, much less the practice of law? To all the people on here who hate lawyers: good luck next time you are wrongfully sued for something you didn't do, or your child makes a mistake and gets pulled over for drunk driving and you need a lawyer to get her out of a jam, or you are miserable at work over sexual harassment, or you need to file for bankruptcy, or you need to get a divorce, etc. Good luck when you are in some of your darkest hours and need a competent attorney--we'll see how much you hate us then.





swester 5 hours ago
2 Fans
...

You're spending $160,000 + interest and 3 years just to fight and claw against your fellow J.D.s in an oversaturated market for jobs reviewing discovery documents at $25/hr. Tell me, who are the lemmings again?


Nice try accusing everyone else of being the "stupid" ones. That's the sort of outstanding argumentation skills they taught you at your third tier toilet?



swester 5 hours ago
2 Fans
You do realize that this article is not really about lawyers, but the law schools who have greedily manipulated employment statistics to boost application and enrollment rates?


I bet when you went to Law school it didn't cost you $160,000 + interest. Oh, and you probably got a JOB when you graduated. Lawyers are a necessity for a free society, without a doubt. But the fact of the matter is that there is an extreme oversaturation in the market, thanks primarily to the schools pumping out graduates left and right, the vast majority from extremely lousy institutions.






Barbie and Ken forever 7 hours ago
53 Fans
Oh just great. I'm going to school right now to go to law school. I hope this is just one article. If not, I'm going to hate myself. This really sucks if it's true


lst01 6 hours ago
0 Fans
Hate to break it to you but this has been the situation for many years and it's only getting worse. Finally the media is revealing the truth: That fewer and fewer law school graduates are getting jobs out of law school. Let alone high-paying jobs. Sure, there are exceptions. If you get into Yale, for example, I'd say go. And if you have lawyers in your family that will promise you a job after graduation then that's a plus as well. But other than that...




bruinlover09 7 hours ago
12 Fans
A lot of people go to college because they have no idea what they should with their lives and everyone says " You should go to law school because you can do anything with a law degree." ABA could solve the gluttony of lawyers by limiting the numbers of students allowed to attend law school in the same way ADA limits the numbers of students admitted into dental school.




lst01 4 hours ago
0 Fans
But that would mean less cushy professor jobs for the elite that make up the ABA's leadership.


So don't count on that happening anytime soon.
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bruinlover09 4 hours ago
12 Fans
You forgot the LSAT preparation scam


I graduated 3 years ago. I want to work in public service but everyone seems to have a budget crisis and there are few jobs available. I didn't go because I thought I would earn a ton of money but because I want a career that would make me happy. It just hasn't happened yet. Weigh your decision very carefully. I'm not sure I would do it again. I don't regret the education at all but the debt is suffocating. People that tell you that you can do anything with a law degree don't know what they're talking about. I also have a master's degree but I can't get a job in that area either because now I'm overqualified for everything EXCEPT being a lawyer, but don't have the right experience to get a job AS a lawyer.


If you decide to go forward, my advice is make damn sure you go to a top school, graduate in the top of your class. If you know what area you want to practice, take every relevant class, get involved in every extracurricular organization available, and intern somewhere in that field. The competition is fierce. Your other option is get a job somewhere that pays for your education and go part time. At least that way if you can't find a legal job right away you won't have to worry about loans.


Good luck.


jasev01 6 hours ago
32 Fans
"now I'm overqualified for everything EXCEPT being a lawyer, but don't have the right experience to get a job AS a lawyer. "exactly correct story of law school




KYlawyer 5 hours ago
292 Fans
Unfortunately, it doesn't get any better. After 15 years I was burnt out and decided I had to do something else. After trying for a year to make a career change, it soon became apparent that no one would hire me to do anything else for just the reasons you cited.


jackstpaul 6 hours ago
19 Fans
You're asking whether or not to give up your goals "based on one news article." My recommendation is that you take a course in research methodology to understand that "one source" (and how good is it?) isn't enough to decide anything, let alone the course of your life and career, before you contemplate making any major decision about anything.
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DANi617 8 hours ago
14 Fans
This would have been nice to know BEFORE I suffered through 1L!!


FreedomOnionSoup 8 hours ago
46 Fans
In other "news" we're grasping at to try and fill up space in our new college section - the sky above Harvard is blue.


Law degrees haven't been foolproof for the past two decades, at the very least. It was bad news before the recession hit, it's worse now, and it's never going to improve as long as the ABA keeps designating any building with a working phone connection as an accredited law school.
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LavishTantrums 9 hours ago
10 Fans
Got my law degree in mid-nineties. It took me five years to rise above minimum wage. Beyond that time, I became successful in a hurry, going from legal temp to partner in relatively few years. My lawyer friend in DC told me that her law degree equates to a high school degree. The bartender that night at our DC eatery was a lawyer. Night shift. I have a group of ostensibly highly-educated friends. Our collective experience has left us aghast. The years, the work, the sacrifice, the atrocious hours. And yet, society pays obscure reality TV "celebrities" $10,000 nightly to show up at clubs. The lawyer is going the way of the teacher. One belief is that the insurance companies "played" the defense bar. Insurance companies used "tort reform" movements to save themselves money. Civil lawsuits are the organized, gentlemanly way of solving disputes, and yet the defense bar ate it up, touting tort reform with religious fervor, making the plaintiff bar the scourge of everyone's existence. The defense bar saw it's own business dry up in this process. Checkmate guys. As for my child? I still hold out hopes he will avoid law to become an artist (or cowboy :-) ...
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swester 5 hours ago
2 Fans
I'm hoping it didn't cost then as much as it does now. It's simply absurd what schools are charging now. $160k+interest!




Nathaniel Christian 12 hours ago
5 Fans
I'm a 2L at a top 20 law school, near the top of my class and on the senior editorial board of the law journal. Since last August, I have sent out 294 distinct cover letters for summer employment. I have received 2 offers, both for unpaid positions, both within the last month.


In comparison, my girlfriend who goes is getting her masters in public policy at a top 10 program applied to 2 summer jobs, both paid, and got offers to both.


The market is really tight right now, so all you can do is keep on putting resumes out there and hope that something sticks eventually. I'm not worried about my long-term prospects, as I know I'll be an asset wherever I end up, but it has certainly been difficult in the short term.





highplainslawyer 9 hours ago
6 Fans
This is news?


I practiced for over 25 years. I was one of those greedy bastards who did not do socially useful work. I prosecuted child abuse and neglect cases. In the eyes of many, I would have been a much more useful member of society peddling AAA mortgage backed securities.


The legal market has been tight for as long as I can remember. To work for one of the big firms, you need to graduate in the top 10% of your class or go to an Ivy League school. Where does that leave the remaining 90%? Unemployed.


But then, the lucky few who work for a big name firm will stay there on the average of 18 months. Then they will join the remaining 90%.


I have been telling kids for years to avoid law school and the legal profession. For me, going to law school was the biggest mistake I have ever made.



jasev01 6 hours ago
32 Fans
"For me, going to law school was the biggest mistake I have ever made. " I have said the same thing every day
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KYlawyer 5 hours ago
292 Fans
Unfortunately, I too wish I had dropped out 1st semester of 1L.
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sjgirl 9 hours ago
2 Fans
Law school is overrated and lawyers are overpaid. Don't go to law school unless you're ready to work REALLY hard and be unemployed for a while. That being said, I graduated in 2007 with a desire to do public interest work. It took me 9 months to find a job. I finally found work at a legal aid office and I ABSOLUTELY love it. Sure I only get paid as much as a teacher (around $45,000), but i usually work a 9-5 (ok more like 6pm), get to be in court all the time (unlike my big firm colleagues), have my own case load & can essentially take on anything I want, and am working on all sorts of interesting cases like suing banks. So I guess my point is, it was worth it for me.




KillerKeith 9 hours ago
1 Fans
This article is a little ridiculous. I've been covering the legal landscape for the last five years. This has been a trend for the last two to three years. This isn't new news. It used to be that law firms controlled the legal market, gouging their clients for as much money as they could get. Now their clients are using their clout to consolidate their outside providers, use technology to automate some of the low-level legal processes, outsource legal work to India on the cheap and insource legal work by bolstering their in-house legal departments. Law firms, for the most part, are done with their hiring frenzies for good.


If you are contemplating law school, here's what you can do to secure yourself a legal job post-JD. Be an engineer or a scientist. Intellectual property law, pharma law and legal technology. This is where the legal job market is, especially for new graduates. If you can bring some sort of special knowledge, like your chemical engineering background, to the table, then you are golden. If, instead, you're hoping to be on the litigation staff, get ready to wait indefinitely for a job.


Chicago Barrister 10 hours ago
2 Fans
The biggest problem is the fraudulent employment statistics put forth by law schools. Most top law schools are still claiming employment rates of 80-90 percent within six months of graduation, even in the current economy, with most law firms cutting attorneys left and right. Based on this information and "average" starting salaries of 90k plus, new law students are making a life changing decision and taking out massive amounts of debt.


The problem is that these employment statistics are based only on recent graduates who respond to the school's survey, (at some schools less than 20 percent of grads!) Those rare few who are employed and well paid are the most likely to respond. Those grads who are unemployed or underemployed are far less likely to respond.


The schools refuse to report accurate post-graduation employment statistics because that is a key component of school rankings, and would harm the number of applicants and dollars coming into the school. The American Bar Association refuses to address this fraud, and increases the problem by constantly approving new law schools at a time when there is already an unprecedented oversupply of new attorneys in the job market. I am stunned that a class action law suit has not been filed yet. The employment statistics law schools are claiming bear no resemblance to the realities of today's legal market and is incredibly deceptive to incoming law students who will have staggering amounts of student loans for 20-30 years.




AristotlePA 8 hours ago
21 Fans
The next bubble or may be the next after the next that will burst will be the overpriced education. Increased tuition just doesn't jive with stagnant incomes except for top graduates of top schools. I mean - really sought after professionals will always be alright but the current restructuring of the US and other national economies has brought a lot of downward pressure on the incomes across the board. There are two industries that are ripe for a raid in the US: medical and education. Pretty much for the same reasons. The law school business is rather shiny example of over-hyped oversupply. I've heard that there are over a million graduates of law schools, most of them passed bar exams but quite a few of them not working in the field at all.


ashwinray 10 hours ago
0 Fans
The only reason I went to law school was bc I had an engineering degree. I went to a 50-100 ranked school, graduated top 25% and was managing editor of law journal. The market is ok for patents and intellectual property law. It's actually growing. Short term is tough but long term prospects are good. I don't know about other practice areas..but IP seems to be ok.


washprogressive 10 hours ago
2 Fans
Unless you go to a name brand school, say one of the top 30, you're taking a huge risk. I attended the University of Detroit, graduated in the top quarter of my class, passed the bar exam first time and was in the top ten percent of passers, and finally found a job working for a sole practitioner who was ultimately disbarred and even went to jail. Needless to say, I soured on the profession and soon quit altogether. Fortunately (as far as making money goes) I married an M.D.


hrc04 10 hours ago
96 Fans
I could have written this story when I graduated in 2006.

jasev01 11 hours ago
32 Fans
Thank you for someone finally recognizing this. The law school system is a scam and the sad part is there is a sucker born every second. Every person who thinks umm I'm unhappy with my 40K office job, I'll just hope in law school, then i'll be a big law like law and order and make like 100+ and be rich and famous and beautiful. Look the law school brochure says 99% of their students had jobs in 6 months and 85% of the make $90-$120K. So they jump in law school takes their money and adds to the problem more. The really in NY an ADA makes $55k the people on law and order couldn't afford the clothes they are wearing. The first thing they give you at bar orientation, was a s uic ide hotline number a drug/alcohol abuse number and tell you use them because lawyers have high rates for all of those things and other. Congrats.

jasev01 10 hours ago
32 Fans
I should also throw in that $55k comes with $150K in debt and a new 60+ hr work week. So you probably make on average less than or equal to $20/hr.

lst01 5 hours ago
0 Fans
60 hour work week? More like zero hours for the increasingly large number of law school graduates who can't get a job.




AristotlePA 11 hours ago
21 Fans
If one has independent means to study just for the sake of studying it a law degree is great addition. But as a pure investment - you better be from the top 5 law schools from their 10 th highest percentile upon graduation. Big law firms always will hire top graduates. the bottom 98% will have a law degree from ABC school located who knows where...unless your school is a household name the investment is likely too risky.
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Gebbeth 11 hours ago
23 Fans
There are a lot of reasons why law is such an uncertain career. They are all connected to each other in one way or another. First off, the cost of education in general and law in particular has grown exponentially. This means that even if someone is interested in public interest law, they can't afford to work in these professions and hope to pay off the debt. Therefore, talented lawyers go into high-paying law firm jobs and big law firms.


It used to be that these law firm jobs were relatively secure. If you could get in, you were in, and you had a support group of partners and senior associates that would train and mentor you to partnership. You also had a cadre of loyal clients who by and large stayed with one firm. Now, a lot of these firms have consolidated, and that creates pressure to generate more and more revenue to take care of overhead in an increasingly consolidated client group. It's murder trying to get a high paying client. So in bad times, the best way to control cost is to fire attorneys.


Billing requirements have also grown, from 1600 hours per year many years ago to something like +2000 per year. That's a crushing burden especially if there is no business around. All this at higher billing rates to justify increased pay and partner payouts and increasing overhead costs.


If you ask me, the current legal/law firm system is extremely broken.




BrwnSknGurl4 11 hours ago
22 Fans
This article is 1000% true! Law firms will never over-hire like it did for the past two decades. Unless you plan to attend a Top 25 law school and still graduate in the top 20% of your class -- forget it! Take the GMAT and get an MBA...it will serve you better anyway!


healthanalyst 11 hours ago
4 Fans
Law school exist solely to keep the law faculty employed.


Consider this, look at the number of lawyers in the US. Count the number of graduates.


There is a trade deficit with China.......


Hmm. Maybe we could ship some to places like Somalia, Iran, North Korea. Really screw them up.



Senseid 12 hours ago
7 Fans
No kidding. A law degree is an incredible gamble. Not an investment. A gamble.





lst01 6 hours ago
0 Fans
Actually, public interest jobs are incredibly difficult to get as well. There are recent grads who have offered to work for free and are turned away.
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Nathaniel Christian 12 hours ago
5 Fans
I'm a 2L at a top 20 law school, near the top of my class and on the senior editorial board of the law journal. Since last August, I have sent out 294 distinct cover letters for summer employment. I have received 2 offers, both for unpaid positions, both within the last month.


In comparison, my girlfriend who goes is getting her masters in public policy at a top 10 program applied to 2 summer jobs, both paid, and got offers to both.


The market is really tight right now, so all you can do is keep on putting resumes out there and hope that something sticks eventually. I'm not worried about my long-term prospects, as I know I'll be an asset wherever I end up, but it has certainly been difficult in the short term.


laocoon 12 hours ago
50 Fans
it hasnt been foolproof for decades. unless you have a ready made job waiting at daddy's firm or just plain love the law itself, it is not the route to take for most.






kidfromkor 12 hours ago
0 Fans
Current 1L student at a law school ranked in the 20's by the recent US New... thing. Never mind an "actual" job after the 3rd year, 1L summer jobs are tough to get. Even the non-paying ones are scarce, and 1Ls flock to them as soon as they are up on the career service job bank. I myself am waiting for reply from a out-of-state law firm that sent me an e-mail telling me they were "impressed with my resume" and apparently got past the first hurdle. That was almost a month and a half ago. There are many students here who got jobs because fair number of them have parents and relatives who are lawyers and they've got networks. Take away those numbers, it's really tough to get a job. period. Personally don't see the situation getting any better in two years.

ssrelso 11 hours ago
0 Fans
And the CEO's of said failing businesses will hire a bunch of unexperienced newly-minted law grads instead of practitioners with decades of work history... why?


There is a huge catch-22 out there: law grads can't get jobs without experience, and can't get experience without a job. Hanging out a shingle is nearly impossible b/c you come out of school $150-200k in the hole and very experienced solos are offering loss-leading services just to keep clients coming in the door. Unless you went to a very, very good school and crushed the academic curve, woe be unto you. I have met more than one Harvard Law '09 grad without a job at area bar association meetings. For my part, I "only" went to a top lib arts school and a Tier 2 law school, so I find myself not getting responses from retail jobs. I wish I was kidding. Law school is the worst decision I have ever made. I'm not thirty, but the debt/interest I am buried under as a result of going to law school will probably prevent me from ever being financially able to raise a family or own a home. Mind you, student loans are the one type of debt not dischargeable in bankruptcy. I have heard rumors of similarly situated grads looking to go ex-pat in any role, since creditors cannot pursue internationally, nor will the government, since not paying your student loans does not amount to a crime.



lst01 6 hours ago
0 Fans
You're not alone. If we could just get the law school cartel to stop falsifying their employment stats then maybe fewer kids would sign over their lives to crushing student loan debt.