We know there are a few non-legal folks who visit our blog. Now we want to hear from you about your reasons why you would or wouldn't hire a law school graduate. Note that I didn't say lawyer because a lot of law school graduates will never have the opportunity to ever practice law. But is the JD alone and three years wasted in law school enough for you to throw the resume into the trash bin? Do you believe the stereotypes about lawyers to be true? Do you really think all of us are just scumbags?Email us at hardknockslaw {at} gmail {dot} com and angelthelawyer {at} gmail {dot} com. If we get even a few responses we'll post them here by next Saturday. Thanks for your participation!
(You can also post your responses in the comments section below. We'll still include you in next Saturday's post).
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In my department I hire "Contract Analysts". These are non-lawyers who negotiate and draft contracts and budgets. The pay scale for these positions is $40,000 to $60,000. I am scared off by lawyers because I don't think anyone would want or could afford to accept this salary-- don't lawyers expect to earn $100K? The work is also very repetitive and clerical in nature. It doesn't have any room to grow. Cut and paste, all day. The Contract Analysts work with our outside counsel who "rubber stamps" their work, but truth be told, an experienced Contract Analyst is way more knowledgeable than an outside attorney who is less familiar with our business model and needs.
ReplyDeleteI also had a very bad experience with a law intern from a TTT school. It took us months to train him. There was such a disconnect between the reality of our business needs in contracting and his "theoretical" approach to law. Compared to the hard-boiled Accounts Receivable clerks that we've trained to become Contract Analysts, he was a sissy. He might have been adept at discussing Legal Realism and the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court in the Hague, but he lacked the Glengarry Glen Ross killer business instincts.
@ Anonymous 11:31
ReplyDeleteI graduated from law school in 2009, unfortunately I missed passing the Bar by 5 points, so I can't even apply for lawyer jobs. I'm at this point applying for secretarial and administrative assistant jobs that I probably wont get because I'm "over-qualified." Trust me, in this economy $40,000-60,000 would be GREAT. Hell, I just want $30,000 a year. I can't help but feel like I wasted my time at law school because even with a JD I'm no better off than I was when I graduated from undergrad in 2005 with a BA in Political Science. Give the law school grads a chance, we need work especially to pay off all of those loans we took out to get through school. It's really hard to not be discouraged in this economy, especially when we did "everything right." After over a year with no real income (outside of student loan refunds, and that money is long gone) my credit gets worse every day because I can't pay the bills that I took out in good faith that I'd have a job when I graduated, and I'm still stuck in my parents house (which is a whole nother issue). All I want at this point is to start a career. To be honest, I didn't really want to practice law anyway by the time I graduated.
Oh wow, I am an attorney and I would kill for a contract analysis position. That's great money! Employers can't assume that every JD wants a salary of $100,000 and a corner office.
ReplyDeleteAnd I cornered a non-legal recruiter with the same question: will a JD hurt his/her chances at a non-JD position? She tried to give me a diplomatically correct answer, but I did get her to concede that if the JD is the only credential, it would hurt.
When I was in law school 10 years ago, the career services department started to push non-legal careers with a JD. They did this of course, because they knew that most of their graduates, especially the ones in the lower half of their class would have difficulties getting a job. Today, the law school I attended has doubled their tuition from the time I graduated, is now 4th tier status and has a current enrollment of 1,000 students. Like Mikka in the above post, I too have worked in non-legal positions in which I did not even disclose my JD on my resume because it would have immediately overqualified me so I only disclosed my B.A. I am now currently looking for work and have a resume listing my JD and another resume only listing my B.A. I use the JD resume only when I need to.
ReplyDeleteI have worked a few non-legal jobs in the past.
ReplyDeleteI've never been an employer, but I have the feeling that it is a real concern from the employer side whether the employee will leave when the economy picks up. You see a lot of comments by lawyers about how they'd love to just have a job, any job. But they don't really go and say something preposterous like "I'd like a job, and even if I had a shot at something better in the future, I will stick with your company because I am a loyal person." Either that would sound disingenuous or just maybe the employer will think this person means it at the time, but will change their minds. The truth is, nobody can promise they won't leave their jobs for a better one if a better one came along. While you can argue that a better one will never come along (the economy will never get better or even if the economy gets better, attorney hiring will not grow fast enough), the employer cannot take that chance.
That being said, I don't think a J.D. is necessarily more of a black mark for "over-qualified" than any other graduate degree. Someone with a M.S. in computer science can't exactly shift gears and be viewed as a great catch for a job at something unrelated to computers. The employer will probably thing the M.S. would leave as soon as he got a computer-related opportunity.
As for me, lord only knows why my non-legal employers didn't have any fear about me leaving. Most likely, they knew I was going to and they just expected the churn, as I am no longer with them anyway. One thing that seemed to be a positive was that they viewed me as reliable and smart. So once again, I don't think the J.D. does this any more than say a Master's in Computer Science or whatever. But they seemed to have viewed a Bachelor's as pretty much garbage. Many people do nowadays; it is equated as the high school diploma of decades past. So a grad degree raises you in that sense.
Also, while attorneys themselves may view the profession as not that strenuous, there is no doubt that outsiders still view it as very professional and high status. I've had bosses who were doctors (the medical kind) and also PhDs and they seemed to feel that I was up to snuff when assigning me various tasks because they thought I would be smart enough to figure things out. (I worked with drug trials for a while).
One of my PhD bosses even joked around about how smart I was and that I learned very fast. I told her that she was the smart one and the reason why I learned fast was that she was a good teacher. She said straight to me that if she were smart, she would've been a lawyer. LOL. So yea, there is still that image that lawyers are smart. Once again, it might hurt in that someone might see you as "overqualified." But I think it could help too.
Long post over.
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ReplyDeleteI am an unemployed loser now, but many moons ago I was a middle-manager in the financial industry with a voice on hiring decisions. I would actually prioritize resumes with weird degrees and different life experiences, on the belief that smart, hardworking people from any background could learn our business, so why not have interesting people around? But unfortunately I think I was in the minority.
ReplyDeleteanon@6:59am: We don't tolerate insults at other commenters or at this blog.
ReplyDeleteLaywers must learn that coffee is for closers as demonstrated in Glengarry Glen Ross. Of course at the end of Glengarry Glen Ross a number of lawyers were employed.
ReplyDeleteedit = Should be Lawyers
ReplyDeleteWhat does that mean? Coffee is for closers? Btw... I have heard from potential nonlegal employers that there is no way they can make me happy OR match my previous income... actually, I've heard it from potential legal employers. And they were working under the assumption that I wanted a 6-figure salary since I once had one. So, anon at 6:59 was wrong about that. Employers assume that you need six figures to be happy.. and if the first comment comes from a potential employer--I wouldn't be surprised if he believed that.
ReplyDeleteMy situation is a bit different. I have lots of experience and I'm not happy with 30K. It's not even a matter of happy or not happy--I have obligations and can't afford to live on that little. I did ride the wave and now I have mortgages, etc. Oh well. But for the youngins who just graduated, they should be given a chance.
It's a reference to Glengarry Glen Ross.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TROhlThs9qY
Well, as someone who was VERY lucky to become an entrepreneur & will be in the position to hire people for jobs maybe I can give some guidance. I work in one of the hardest fields to break into; it makes getting a job in BigLaw looking like a cakewalk.
ReplyDeleteThe simplest reason I would be hesitant about taking a JD is lack of true interest in entertainment. I did acting & singing w/enough natural ability at both that I would have pursued both of these professionally if I hadn't gone to law school; in fact, I have opportunities to do that today since I'm not consigned to just being "the lawyer."
We don't want people working w/us who lack creativity and the passion it takes to have a successful film/TV show/performance.
Another issue is too many lawyers. Unless you're creating an in-house legal department, a small company needs one person w/legal knowledge (bonus points if that person is a lawyer). In the companies I'm at, I'M the legal person handling day to day stuff; I've acquired trust & loyalty. Quite frankly, you're not going to trump a lawyer who's worked w/someone for years or proven they are passionate about the business + will be there in good times & bad. In short I'm top dog & if you want to be a top dog someplace, you're going to have to prove you deserve it. Set aside your pride, don't give attitude & make yourself as irreplaceable as possible. Cut into someplace where a lawyer's already present & watch your career tank before it begins.
The last big problem w/transitioning to my area w/a JD is personality. Lawyers have a personality type that generally doesn't appeal to creative people; basically, they're too abrasive, uptight & out of touch. If you can hang out and blend into an industry event, you're going to go farther in working w/creative people.
Those being said, if I got an intern candidate who had a JD I might give an interview just to find out why they want to work in my company. Having a JD landed me an Exec Assistant position w/my company that eventually led to my becoming a partner. Being a lawyer + good timing also got me into a new TV company where my knowledge is valued & people listen to me.
I think you're an idiot if you'd stick by a company you don't own unless you're getting actual proof that you are valued. It's why I wouldn't waste my time if I weren't working w/the owners or having my contributions taken seriously; yep, I'm a HUGE supporter of self-employment.