Wednesday, February 3, 2010

You Are Not Alone: England Suffers Toooooooooooooooooo!

I've always been under the impression that the mainstream media in  England is a bit less partial than mainstream media in this country.  Especially during the election, and for the years that I followed the war, I would tune into BBC before Fox and CNN.  Actually, BBC was my home page for the longest time.  That being said, it's no surprise that this article was posted in a major English Newspaper--and I haven't seen anything nearly as honest and fact-filled in our papers.  Just as the British Tabloids are the first to expose the nasties on all the stars, I learned all sorts of dirty things about how legal outsourcing works.  I have to admit that I had NO IDEA that England was allowing for outsourcing to India as well.  There is no mention in the article, but I'd like to know when the British equivalent to the ABA agreed that outsourcing was a suitable alternative to hiring attorneys educated in England. I am really sorry that your ABA sold you out, my British readers. I thought ours was the lowest of the law--oops, LOW.  They must be happy to know that they have company down there in the lowest level of Dante's Inferno.

So, let's figure out what we are commiserating about.  In the article, I found out the following:

" army of young Indian graduates, most of them from the country’s top law and engineering schools, sits before a barrage of computer terminals. Many are working on legal documents digitally accessed from the servers of blue-chip Western clients via transcontinental fibreoptic cables. Others are engaged in research for upcoming litigation to be fought out in American courtrooms, or are analysing patent filings registered by British companies." [Emphasis added]

Wow.  So, until reading this, I had no idea that Indian lawyers could legally do anything aside from simple document review.  As it turns out, they are ready, willing and able to create legal documents, do legal research and, presumably, writing and patent law??!!!  So, why are doc reviewers the only ones that are up at arms?

I think that patent lawyers, general practitioners and transactional attorneys should join in on the march against legal outsourcing to India.  Will they be installing video telephones in courtrooms so that Indian Attorneys can make court appearances too????  This is the definition of a slippery slope and I can't say that any area of the law is safe any longer.

"Much of the work that Pangea3 and similar firms deal with, such as drafting derivatives contracts or conducting due diligence for mergers and acquisitions, was once the preserve of trainees and associates at big City law firms. Some of those firms racked up annual revenues of more than £1 billion during the boom years, in part by billing out teams of junior lawyers for up to £300 an hour for even the most routine tasks."  [Emphasis added].

As a side note, Pangea is owned by American Companies:
"The company's investors include Sequoia Capital, the same venture capital firm that once backed a little Silicon Valley upstart called Google. (Other big names in the legal process outsourcing -- or LPO industry -- include Clutch Group, CPA Global, Integreon and Mindcrest.)"

Back to the original discussion...

So, these Indian Lawyers aren't messing aound with pedley nonsense.  They are doing due dilligence and drafting derivative contracts??? Really?!!  I am shocked and appalled that Partners in big law firms in England, after years of only wanting the best graduates and training them through patience and mentoring, willingly throw work to Indian Lawyers living half a world away, of whom they know nothing.  That is definitely out of line with the boy's club model of lawyering which has been dominant in both England and the United States for decades.  I pray that they are hit with Angel's death curse... and the Indians screw up something extremely important and cost each big law firm millions more than British/American counsel would have cost.  From my fingertips, to God's ears!

"... in a drive to cut costs, are beginning to send that sort of work to cheaper jurisdictions, such as India, South Africa and the Philippines."

Once again, my jaw dropped to find out that South Africa and the Phillippines were also vying for outsourcing work???  How did we miss this????  We were so distracted by Indian Outsourcing Companies and Nigerian Lawyers who are notorious for seizing document review jobs, despite their lack of an American Legal Education--that we didn't even realize that there are a couple of other countries that are prepared to take what little work we have off of our hands!

"That sort of cost-saving has proved compelling in the wake of the economic downturn and is causing demand for Indian outsourcing providers to soar. Studies suggest that there are as many as 10,000 lawyers in the country working for outsourcing providers, and total revenues in the sector are expected to double this year to $1 billion (£613 million) and rise to $4 billion within five years." [Emphasis added].

Isn't it ironic that they have 10,000 gainfully employed attorneys in India, considering that nearly 2,000 lawyers were laid off from just the top 10 law firms in the country. The rest of the industry probably lost at least 8,000 jobs.  We just packed all of those jobs up and shipped them to India where 10,000 Indian Lawyers are prepared to do what we have done for hundreds years, for a fraction of the price and cost it takes to practice the law.

"The commercial legal market was badly shaken by the downturn and many senior partners expect that the double-digit growth of the boom years will not return for some time. Instead, the sector is reshaping itself. Some top firms believe that they will have to be leaner to retain profitability, with fewer associates for every partner. They plan to focus exclusively on high-end work for which clients will continue to pay top rates, while less valuable work will be farmed out."

I'll go ahead and say the obvious; if law firms reshape themselves into a top-heavy model where the work is farmed abroad and the partners focus on "high-end" work and rain-making, the quality will suffer.  There is very little supervision in Bangalore.  Senior associates are no longer valued, along with new grads--and they are the real workhorses of any law firm.  So, once again, the law firm model may implode because of the revamping in this economy.  Between outsourcing, laying off senior associates and charging flat fees, the PPP is sure to drop to the single digits.

So, thanks to ABA Un-Ethics Opinion 08-451, American Lawyers are suffering from the consequences of outsourcing.  It's good to know that England is too.  Not because I want the legal profession to fall apart in two countries, rather than one... but it's nice to know that you are not alone.


  1. Great post, Angel! (I love the fire you write with.) Law is a business, and the pigs at the top will gladly throw 98 percent of us overboard - so they can make more in the way of profit.

    In the U.S., we have been inundated with the idea that white-collar work was secure, more so than industrial jobs. Well, it turns out that white-collar work is MUCH easier to outsource and offshore!! Filing documents can be done electronically, from anywhere in the world.

    At least with warehouse jobs and the skilled trades, the companies had to at least let go of their workforce in-person, physically close the plant down, set up operation somewhere else, and train foreign workers on the task at hand.

    With today's temp agency hags in place, many of us are happy to work without bennies, for lower wages, and NO job security. We simply get a phone call or an email letting us know that the project has been closed.

    Pieces of putrid trash like Ronald Wilson Reagan and the Corporate Machine relentlessly beat down on unions, living wages, premium benefits, trial lawyers, regulations, and the like. This country essentially tossed the middle class down the sewer. So that a few cockroaches at the top could make off with more assets and accumulated wealth.

  2. Regarding the patent law issue: for the past few years, I believe at least one of the top 10 IP boutiques in the nation (in terms of patents filed per annum) has been known in the industry for outsourcing a lot of the patent drafting work to India and having their attorneys essentially work as project managers. During my interview a few years ago, I asked how any of their associates actually learned how to write applications, and they didn’t really explain it to my satisfaction.

    I also didn’t get that job.


  3. As recently as last week, I heard someone talking about taking the Patent Bar to improve their chances of getting a job. Clearly, I am forwarding this post to her.

  4. just a tip, nando...try sticking to the point instead of veering off into tangent-land with your rant that included ronald reagan, who had NOTHING - i repeat, NOTHING - to do with the aba's filthy decision to allow for outsourced legal work. stick to the salient point at hand and your message will be better taken. it's not only democrats who are bitter over their law school experiences, you know...

  5. 6:55--considering republicans are the party of big corps, why would republicans be mad that corps are excercising their right to use cheaper labor and increase profits for the 20% of this country that OWNS this country???

  6. If you believe the Democrats is not a party of big corps you are living in a fantasyland.

  7. Both parties are corporate-owned.

    To the sensitive Republican at 6:55, I am sorry that your mommy and daddy instilled in you the idea that mental midget Ronald Reagan was a friend of the working classes.

    Today's climate of constant outsourcing, "downsizing" and offshoring has been set in motion for DECADES. The outsourcing of legal work (and other professional tasks) is the outsourcing of white-collar work. Got that!?!?

    And, yes, corporate-owned cockroaches like Ronald Wilson Reagan helped set the stage for this. They targeted trade unions and demonized them. This turned the people against such organized labor. This in turn, made it that much easier for corporations to dismantle our industrial base and restructure our economy into a low-wage, service-based economy.

    The fact is that white-collar work is easier to offshore than traditional industry. Get it?! (Or do I need to explain this to you by drawing a diagram on white posterboard with crayon, so it can penetrate your dense skull?! Let me know.)

    Again I am sorry that YOU cannot put two and two together. The outsourcing of legal work IS connected to the decades-long dismantling of our manufacturing base - just the next phase of the game, kid. Your inability to grasp such basic concepts is indeed a failing of our public school system.

  8. Why does this have to be about a party being wrong or right. I think this has nothing to do with either party. This has to do with capitalism and capitalism is at odds with the interest of the citizenry of the country. Both parties are ineffective in helping citizens. So, the only way we can this problem is to become socialist. And considering that UK is socialist and that didn't fix outsourcing, we are just screwed.

  9. jesus christ, nando, you're a fucking retard (see, i can call you names, too!) i'm a regular reader of ALL of your blogs, but you obviously don't adhere to the "kill them with kindness" principle and really, yes really, that kind of banter is a huge turn-off to a large portion of your potential audience. get rid of that shit if you ever want your message taken seriously. cocksucker.

  10. I love you both, Nando and 1:46 p.m.! xoxoxox Don't fight, just discuss passionately!

  11. I probably got this from one of your blogs, but in case people haven't see this Indian news show on outsourcing:

    Russell Smith at 1:24 is most interesting - he talks about dispatching attorneys to U.S. courts from India.

  12. What's up with the angry piece of shit at 1:46? I guess 'nando' whipped you a good one, and this is the only way you can respond to his handling of you. And he most definitely *handled* you, even if he was a bit harsh. At least he punked you with class. Lashing out like a 2 year-old with tourette's is a turn off. Good luck in the seventh grade.

  13. And I do mean he handled you completely and dominated your ass. Hope you have a tissue to stop the bleeding. Chalk it up to a lesson learned. You got b****slapped by a smarter, more articulate person who had the facts on his side. Perhaps you should learn how to make a cogent argument, and you wouldn't get so thoroughly owned. I'm just sayin'...

  14. Also, nando, maybe the utter moron above is a product of private schooling. What makes you think he is a (waste) prodcut of the public schools?

  15. your incessant cheerleading of nando doesn't make any of it truer than it would be absent your blather. look no further than nando's first "point" - who on earth ever argued that reagan was a friend of the working classes??? so go ahead and cheer on that "dominating" performance of blowing away strawmen. fucking awesome job, dude.

    the point remains - this is NOT a partisan issue. proceed as you wish, but if you really want to shut out that many potential allies on this issue, your loss.

  16. Way to jump in there, ref, well after "Mr' Third Tier reality" beat the fuck out of this poor bastard. C'mon, tell us: How does it feel to get a first-class throttling from a TTT grad? Also, look at the entry below. This son of a bitch has at least been on radio and if I remember correctly, just got featured on TtT.

    If it makes any difference to you, I feel bad that nando beat the shit out of you and your weak arguments. Now, go rinse your tears away in the sink, blow your damn nose, grab yourself some a glass of warm milk, plug in your heated blanket, and ask your mum to tuck you in. Everything will be alright, honey. Grow up, bitch.

  17. I am late to this "discussion." But it looks like Nando's first point was that law as an industry, which puts profits first. Duh. He then mentioned the process of where we are at today. The destruction of the industrial base was the first step. If you cannot understand this, then you are beyond help. You created the straw man, e.g. Reagan was in NO WAY resp. for the ABA's decision. He simply set fire to it.

    And didn't he also note that "both parties are corporate-owned?" Does that in any way imply that he prefers one party over the other? I guess you are still miffed and throwing a fit because he dared to cast doubt on your precious beliefs?

    I am sorry that you were/are offended by someone taking down your personal hero, Reagan. (This man was the worst "president" in the last 50 years, and that is saying something.) If you can't accept reality, that is a personal problem.

    You responded like a angry, confused, dumb ape. Your adversary did hand your butt to you. Notice how he didn't have to rely on slander and vulgar language. Who knows? It might have something to do with his higher intelligence and ability to make a clear argument. have a good night.

  18. Folks, is continuing this pack mentality really the best strategy to get your message out there? The guy who spoke out against Nando (disclaimer: I don't have the highest opinion of him) was attacked repeatedly even though he basically said he holds your views! And you guys call me the nutjob...

  19. I have to agree with Doug... shocker. Due to someone's inaction or action.. our market has been shipped abroad. We are all in the same boat. Even patent attys who I thought were insulated from this.

  20. If you want "sound" investment advice from a pre-law student/former cop, check out Doug's materials. It should give you a good laugh.

    To Hypersensitive Republican, we agree that the ABA “Ethics” Opinion was garbage. We also agree that we now inhabit a work world that is insecure. However, we did not somehow come from a time warp, and suddenly went from 1960 to 2010. Did you think that white collar work simply got outsourced overnight?

    In between those years, lots of demonizing of unions took place, and the manufacturing base of this company was decimated. Greedy corporations decided to move their operations overseas where they could pay the workforce slave wages. Greedy, spineless politicians allowed this to happen. They did not set high tariffs on those companies, or otherwise seek to protect American workers.

    The restructuring of the U.S. economy from a producer nation to a heavily-indebted net consumer nation took place over DECADES. Got that?! (I can’t believe I need to explain this to you, like you are in grade school.) I am not here just to talk about law school, and the legal industry. What is happening to the lawyer market is starting to happen to dentists and doctors, as well. It is also starting to affect those in math and in the hard sciences. Even gifted scientists are competing globally against skilled scientists from other countries, for a shrinking piece of the pie.

    The fact remains that we were sold a bill of goods, i.e. “Education is the key to your future.” We were also trained - by family, peers, and society - to look down on the skilled trades, as blue-collar work is for reprobates and idiots (which is clearly NOT the case). We were then told that college is for everyone – this is simply not the case. These things set in motion LEGIONS of people applying to - and getting accepted into - college, which then created a huge demand for student loans. This in turn, fueled the HUGE increase in tuition at public and private colleges and graduate programs. The administrators and professors could then claim, “We are meeting the demands of the ‘market.’ We must increase tuition at such high rates.” The results have been TENS of THOUSANDS of college graduates and those with advanced degrees working for peanuts in call centers, as busboys, waiters, claims adjusters, bartenders, and low-level managers. (You have put together a puzzle before, right?)

    I have been kind to my detractors. However, when someone proves himself to be a complete and utter moron, my inclination to be kind dissipates. I have a very low tolerance for blatant stupidity and willful ignorance. And you, Sensitive Republican, have shown yourself to be both. And THAT is why I have been merciless in beating you and your ideas down.

    Now, can we move on to the conversation at hand – or do want to continue to worship the rotting remains and detritus formerly known as Ronald Reagan? Have you not fully grieved over his untimely death? If only you would grieve for the death of this nation's financial state - and the American worker - the same way you do for your beloved cockroach, i.e. Ronald Reagan.

  21. uh, nando, the only thing laughable here is the assertion by you and your cheerleaders that you've "beaten me down." more words doesn't equal "beat down." DO YOU GET THAT? i'm not sure what "ideas" of mine you've "beaten down," since all i've shared is that reagan had nothing to do with the aba ethics opinion. tell me what other "ideas" and "arguments" i've made. CAN YOU DO THAT? i can't believe i have to ask you like a grade-schooler to follow what was actually said, and not what you want to hear.

    you've been merciless, alright - merciless at "beating down" assertions i haven't made. if you DID know how to read, you'd also realize that i did say that i read all of your blogs - i don't disagree with your position on this issue, so giving me the quick and dirty rundown on how the current situation came to be doesn't add anything to the discussion. again, you'd realize that if you responded to what i wrote instead of going all over the place like a madman writing what you "thought" i wrote.

    so keep explaining the shift to a heavily-indebted consumer nation to people that haven't questioned that or argued against that state of being. OK, GOT THAT?!?!!?

    and last but not least (yet again) - it would behoove you to stick to the issue and avoid these rants unless you want to alienate a sizable portion of potential supporters. i've now received no response about that, yet responses on a host of issues i never brought up. gee, i wonder why. DO YOU GET MY DRIFT?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?

  22. So you actually do have a basic understanding of the current state of things? I am surprised. I called Reagan out, and YOU went off the deep end. Remember?! You turned this from an entry on English law firms outsourcing their work to a " emotion-filled debate" on why Ronald Reagan is (or is not) the world's best, most fantastic politician in the history of the universe.

    We agree that this country is in shambles. Reagan had a definitive hand in that. Go read a history or entry-level macroeconomics book (or in your particular case, a color-coded large chart of the national debt). You made the claim that "ronald reagan, who had NOTHING - i repeat, NOTHING - to do with the aba's filthy decision to allow for outsourced legal work."

    Yes, he has been physically dead for more than 5 years now - although his brain had been dead for about 20 years prior to that. So, Ronnie did not write the ABA "Ethics" Opinion or consult them on it.

    However, he did set the stage for this type of thing to eventually take place, i.e. the outsourcing and offshoring of white collar work - with his shilling for corporations and putting a nice, grandfatherly face on his attacks on their behalf. And that is what I went after. When you proceeded to act like an angry woman who just found her husband in bed with another woman, that is when I decided to go after you and your diminished permanent mental state. Got that?!

    You should also get your high blood pressure checked out by a doctor. Worry about the important things in life, not about someone calling a spade a spade, i.e. Reagan is a piece of filth. Understand?!

  23. did i turn it into a debate over why reagan is or isn't the world's best, most fantastic politician in the history of the universe?! did i really?! TELL ME WHAT I SAID ABOUT REAGAN BESIDES THAT HE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ABA ETHICS OPINION. DO IT. you have not a clue about what i think of reagan, and with which of his policies i agree/disagree!!!

    strawman after strawman after strawman after strawman...

    not even you could argue that reagan directly caused the aba to hand down the opinion that they did. what we do disagree about is whether he indirectly caused it. that's all i've offered my opinion on - nothing more, nothing less. yet you've managed to find so much more to my words than what's on your screen. UNDERSTAND YET?!?!!?!?!?!?!!?

    and of course, you continue to ignore the concern i have for this issue as a whole (you know, the one about alienating the non-super-liberals). no surprise there. please change your tone - the plight of thousands of law grads needs to be heard, and you talking the way that you do is only going to help to marginalize the discussion. please don't hamper the efforts of everyone else.

  24. Two points:

    1) congrats nando! You beat up on a weaker, outmatched opponent. Yayy! (The poor bastard is probablt recovering in a local intensive care unit, after that drubbing.) Feel good about yourself? Now get back to the TTT Reality website and post some more funny, insightful stuff. Honestly, how much time did you devote to pummeling this turd?
    2) To nando’s latest victim, Move on. When you check yourself out of the ICU, learn to avoid aggressive bulldogs like this. (This advice will probably go unheeded, and you will end up with another vicious dog bite, Dumbass.)

    1. Nando is nothing other than a bitter manboy whose only ability is to fling shit all over the place like a mad, raging ape. Little this rageful manboy has to say amounts to anything other than simple temper tantrums of rage full of sound and fury signifying nothing. Grow up douche. You do far more harm with your spews than you do any good. Better yet dumbo do all of us a favor and stfu.



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