Tuesday, March 8, 2011

From the Bottom to the Top and Back to the Bottom Again.

The following is a comment that was left on a recent post and I thought it was worth re-publishing a tail for the the weary:
I was denied my law license in Illinois for 7 years because I was unable to pay even the minimum payment for my student loans. I eventually enlisted the help (because I certainly couldn't pay his fees) of a solo practitioner who suggested I consistently make a payment to the loan holders and keep a record of those payments. Every six months or so I kept petitioning the Illinois Character and Fitness Committee to reconsider my application. I sat - alone - before a literal tribunal of attorneys, all physically seated higher than the chair reserved for the applicant, and was insultingly told I would never receive my license unless I could get some "rich relative" to pay my loans. What rich relative? My parents' home is valued at less than 1/2 what my student loans have risen to be. After 7 years of rejection, 7 years of falling behind on the compound interest, of being hounded by a rotating rogue's gallery of debt collectors, of watching my law school classmates pass me by, gaining experience while I languished in a legal editorship, I finally broke through to some sypathetic someone on the committee and got my license. Now 11 years later, I've worked my way up through the associate ranks of a mid-sized Chicago firm. I had been groomed for the last year as the next potential partner. My boss was telling me for a year how wonderful my prospects looked and to expect an invitation to sign on as a partner come the December 2010 reviews. Long story short: the partnership was pulled out from under me at the last possible second, not for the quality of my work, not for my aptitude, but because my long-fought troubles with student loans had somehow rendered me "financially unfit" to handle the Firm's multi-million dollar lawsuits. In other words, if I couldn't handle my own money, why should they trust me with the Firm finances? (Somehow the 6 years of killing myself to prove that I was worthy enough to consider for partnership wasn't enough.) Just weeks before the partnership determination was to be made, I received the second of 2 garnishments on my wages for my defaulted student loans. The default came to the attention of the Firm ironically through the collection counsel that the Firm uses to collect fees from delinquent clients. So, even though I had spent years dutifully paying at least something on my student loans, my career, such as it is, was once again derailed by the student loan anvil that I will apparently drag around after me for the rest of my life. I, once again, have little hope for the future. I work in "limbo" at the moment, never sure whether I will be bounced out on my ass as one of the partnership candidates who just didn't pan out. My Firm has a small army of such underlings who are all routinely treated with disdain and shoveled shit cases/files to discourage their continuing at the Firm. I want to leave, but honestly probably won't be able to secure another job anywhere nearby that might pay me the meager salary that I already do collect. Stupidly, I went trolling sites online that compared the salaries of 1st year associates in the Chicagoland area. Six years into my job at this Firm, I still don't make the 1st year salaries of most of the top-rated, top tier firms. I just don't know what to do.
I am not sure what you're supposed to do at this point.  In my opinion, if what you've told me is true, you've proven yourself to be a competent attorney--you may even be excellent.  It's a great accomplishment to be offered partnership.  I can't believe the partners at your firm reneged.  It's a shame that they can't see past your financial woes.  I wonder... What if one of the partners lost everything in a divorce because he was irresponsible and married his money-grubbing secretary without a pre-nuptual agreement.  What if a lawyer had a garnishment for child support?  Babies happen, yes--but isn't a child out of wedlock the epitome of irresponsibility?  What if a lawyer were sued as a result of a simple car accident?  Where is the line?  
Apparently, it's with student loans.  
The divine irony is that young people sign their lives away at about the same time they max out their first Discovery Card.  But, unlike the credit card debt, they can't shake the student loans.  Think long and hard before you pull out student loans.  It's not something you worry about later.  It's the gift that keeps giving, much like herpes.  Just when you think the flare ups are done, it comes back at the most inopportune times.  
Wait!  I have an idea.  Do your parents have any organs they can donate?  Do you?  Apparently, parents of an indebted college grad offered up their organs on craigslist for $200,000.00  (Thanks Tipster!) That's a real parental contribution that FAFSA doesn't take into account.  I remember, when times were good, reading about Indian people that sold their organs to marry off their daughters. The concept was so alien to me.  Not anymore.  It's right up there with selling eggs to infertile rich people--or the use of your womb for 9 months.  In other words, if there is a market for organs--American's will reconsider the utility of that other kidney in the very near future.


Anyone know where I can sign up for Cairo style protests?  We're long overdue.

31 comments:

  1. To the Anonymous Commenter from Illinois Who Inspired This Post:

    I am glad you shared your story -- not that I am glad to hear about your student-loan inspired misery, but because your story illustrates a very real scenario of how the nation's best and brightest are being mistreated by the student loan system and the legal complex.

    More of these stories need to be told so that Congress will actually do something. How can they bail out the evil-doer banks -- the same exact people who got wealthy by wrecking the economy -- but not help with student-loan reform? It's unbelievable that they took student loans out of the bankruptcy system AFTER I signed up for law school!

    I wrote to my own Senator, Lindsey Graham, about the coming student loan crisis 10 years ago, and his office told me (in more polite language) to go fuck myself -- they weren't going to do ANYTHING about student loans. And, boy, they were right! (they didn't do anything about toxic mortgages either LOL)

    You clearly are a lot smarter and harder-working than me, most of the people I know, and the condescending assholes on that committee, many of whom are no doubt second generation lawyers born into Daddy's law practice.

    If I was in your shoes, I would probably emigrate to another country and just never pay student loans again. If you don't have that option, my advice is to take things one day at a time until Congress figures this mess out. Specifically:

    1. Take really good care of yourself. Do yoga, eat right, drink green tea. You are a lot more valuable to the world than a bunch of stupid, unethical commercial paper. Life is short, and you deserve a good one. Seriously, your work ethic, forthrightness with the committee, etc. shows that you are a really good guy (or gal). Hang in there. Don't ever let one of those smug pricks affect your sense of self worth.

    2. Take a step back from all this and look at your career. The reason everything in the legal profession is a shitstorm these days is SCARCITY -- there simply is not enough legal work to go around. If lawyers were in short supply, you and all your cohorts would have glamorous, high-paying jobs. Most all the problems with the legal profession are rooted in this lack of work -- This scarcity even fuels the myth of "elite" lawyers that allows the big firms to charge ridiculous rates. The Number One Rule of Legal Careers is there isn't enough work to go around, and there never will be. Do you really want to be in a profession with shitty prospects for most of its members? I didn't, so I left and pursued work in a growing field that I actually enjoy doing.

    3. You're probably already doing this, but become a world-class expert on student loan repayment. Research issues like whether you can move to a jurisdiction that doesn't allow wage garnishment. Research the 10-year repayment plans that I have heard you can get for working in public interest jobs. Also, maybe yours might be one of those extremely rare cases where some kind of bankruptcy relief would be available on a hardship basis - couldn't hurt to sit down with a bankruptcy lawyer for a free consult.

    4. Consider calling the student loan people every day - just make as many people listen to your story as possible -- maybe one day they will get you a break. Remind them how unfair the student loan situation is, with all the talking points from BIDER etc.

    5. Keep posting on sites like this. Your posts gives succor to similarly situated folks. You are to be commended for sharing your story, and BIDER is to be commended for providing a platform to do so.

    6. Consider writing to your legislative delegation. Maybe you'll have better luck than I did with do-nothing fat-cat beholden-to-special-interest Senator Lindsey Graham.

    YOU DID EVERYTHING RIGHT!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  2. To the Anonymous Commenter from Illinois Who Inspired This Post:

    I am glad you shared your story -- not that I am glad to hear about your student-loan inspired misery, but because your story illustrates a very real scenario of how the nation's best and brightest are being mistreated by the student loan system and the legal complex.

    More of these stories need to be told so that Congress will actually do something. How can they bail out the evil-doer banks -- the same exact people who got wealthy by wrecking the economy -- but not help with student-loan reform? It's unbelievable that they took student loans out of the bankruptcy system AFTER I signed up for law school!

    I wrote to my own Senator, Lindsey Graham, about the coming student loan crisis 10 years ago, and his office told me (in more polite language) to go fuck myself -- they weren't going to do ANYTHING about student loans. And, boy, they were right! (they didn't do anything about toxic mortgages either LOL)

    You clearly are a lot smarter and harder-working than me, most of the people I know, and the condescending assholes on that committee, many of whom are no doubt second generation lawyers born into Daddy's law practice.

    If I was in your shoes, I would probably emigrate to another country and just never pay student loans again. If you don't have that option, my advice is to take things one day at a time until Congress figures this mess out. Specifically:

    1. Take really good care of yourself. Do yoga, eat right, drink green tea. You are a lot more valuable to the world than a bunch of stupid, unethical commercial paper. Life is short, and you deserve a good one. Seriously, your work ethic, forthrightness with the committee, etc. shows that you are a really good guy (or gal). Hang in there. Don't ever let one of those smug pricks affect your sense of self worth.

    2. Take a step back from all this and look at your career. The reason everything in the legal profession is a shitstorm these days is SCARCITY -- there simply is not enough legal work to go around. If lawyers were in short supply, you and all your cohorts would have glamorous, high-paying jobs. Most all the problems with the legal profession are rooted in this lack of work -- This scarcity even fuels the myth of "elite" lawyers that allows the big firms to charge ridiculous rates. The Number One Rule of Legal Careers is there isn't enough work to go around, and there never will be. Do you really want to be in a profession with shitty prospects for most of its members? I didn't, so I left and pursued work in a growing field that I actually enjoy doing.

    3. You're probably already doing this, but become a world-class expert on student loan repayment. Research issues like whether you can move to a jurisdiction that doesn't allow wage garnishment. Research the 10-year repayment plans that I have heard you can get for working in public interest jobs. Also, maybe yours might be one of those extremely rare cases where some kind of bankruptcy relief would be available on a hardship basis (or did Republican bankruptcy "reform" get rid of that, too?) Couldn't hurt to sit down with a bankruptcy lawyer for a free consult.

    4. Consider calling the student loan people every day - just make as many people listen to your story as possible -- maybe one day they will get you a break. Remind them how unfair the student loan situation is, with all the talking points from BIDER etc.

    5. Keep posting on sites like this. Your posts gives succor to similarly situated folks. You are to be commended for sharing your story, and BIDER is to be commended for providing a platform to do so.

    6. Consider writing to your legislative delegation. Maybe you'll have better luck than I did with do-nothing fat-cat beholden-to-special-interest Republican Senator Lindsey Graham.

    YOU DID EVERYTHING RIGHT!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  3. Did you have your own book of business. If not, the student loans is just an excuse. No one can make partner in a firm any more unless he has his own clients. If you had your own sizeable book of business, they wouldn't care. Don't feel bad though. Very few lawyers have their own books of business. No one tells you in law school that law is really all about sales.

    ReplyDelete
  4. 10:17 is absolutely correct! Well said.

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  5. "Cairo style protests"...why? Because you asked for money, got the cash, spent the cash, and are now failing to pay it back as agreed? Either repay the loans or don't and take the consequences. Comparisons to Cairo are ludicrous.

    And no one is stopping any of the many oh so forthright, yet curiously anonymous, scambloggers from organizing street protests. Does anyone think that gathering a bunch of unemployed deadbeat lawyers to march and wail about how tough they have it will elicit anything but derision and laughter? If so, have at it.

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  6. I find it somewhat hard to believe that you were able to get back on the legal track after being essentially "out" of the legal profession for 7 years waiting for bar admission and then some years later being offered the prospect of partnership, regardless of firm size. To the extent that is true, you were able to overcome long odds despite the partnership falling through. Count your blessing that you still have a job.

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  7. I believe your story - but I think you are looking past how manipulative the firm that gave you a second chance to join the legal profession is being.

    They now have a sixth-year for less than they'd have to pay a first-year. Why would they share their profits with you? They blame you and your loans for doing what they want to do anyway - which is work you for less money than they'd have to pay anyone else, and convince you all the while they're doing you a favor.

    Don't count your blessings that you still have a job with these utterly shit manipulative assholes. Find another job. At least now you have experience.

    And if you need to learn anything from this experience, it's how not to get used, and that requires you to not feel guilty for crap that happened years ago.

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  8. If this story is true, then that is tragic. Hopefully, this person will keep their job. Still want to go to law school, lemmings?!

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  9. 11:28 sounds like someone employed by Sallie Mae.

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  10. 11:28 sounds like someone who pays her/his bills.

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  11. Repaying what was borrowed is paying one's bills. Repaying two or three times what was borrowed in interest and fees, on non-dischargeable debt loaned in the full knowledge that the debtor was a bad debt... that's paying one's bookie.

    Don't pretend those student loans are a bill. They're predatory, they're calculated to be extremely profitable for the bank, and they never go away.

    That's a big difference, but I guess a bank employee such as yourself probably knows that.

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  12. The unfortunate truth here is that by telling the writer to sponge off of "rich relatives", the inherent classism of law comes through. I doubt that the C&F committee members have ever had to deal with real financial problems due to family and connections, so they have no patience for anyone who struggles with their bills.

    Working hard and finally making a dent in the bills is worthless-all that matters is that you be rich in the first place.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Get a load of this crap posted yesterday:

    http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2011/03/09/plenty-of-hiring-opportunities-for-legal-beagles-and-their-peeps/?ncid=txtlnkuscare00000002

    Not sure what they are smoking, but it must be some good stuff.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Yeah, that's right - you better get out there and network and hustle like pimp to get that job! It's not working? Are your personal e-mails and calls being ignored by your contacts amidst the piles of resumes/messages from our poverty saturated generation? Well then you'd better try harder! Can't pay $1,500 a month in student loans, plus rent, utilities, food, insurance and miscellaneous? Well you had better pull yourself up by the ol' bootstraps and get hungry for it! The cream floats to the top! Boomer at 11:28 - please crawl up into a ball, fuck yourself and die.

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  15. I am a little unclear on the timeline. If I am doing the math correctly, I graduated about the same time as the author (early 90s), and almost everyone in my class was admitted prior to the first loan payment even being due. Am I misunderstanding something?
    Thanks for any clarification.

    ReplyDelete
  16. A lot of things in her story make no sense. I also graduated in the early 90s and don't know anyone who had problems being admitted, even if they were unemployed and had put all their loans in forbearance pending admission and employment. (We had a pretty nasty recession back then, as some may remember.)

    If she's been a partner-track associate at a mid-sized firm for six years, why on earth is she still in default? Why didn't she contact everyone and work out a payment schedule based on whatever she was making and cure the default? With most loans, if you do that and pay on time for 12 months, you're out of default.

    Why would an experienced attorney be so cavalier (or stupid) that she'd let the defaults result in garnishment, which guarantees that her employer would learn of it?

    "if I couldn't handle my own money, why should they trust me with the Firm finances?" I think that's a fair question.

    ReplyDelete
  17. "Boomer at 11:28 - please crawl up into a ball, fuck yourself and die." Well said. Boomers piss me off too. And my parents are boomers. Greedy bastards.

    Yeah this story is just a little too over the top to be believed. I'm not saying it's impossible, but as many of you know, when you are out of the legal profession for any length of time, it's hard enough to just get "a" job, let alone one leading to partnership. I'm just not buying it.

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  18. Yep, "greedy bastards" indeed. Don't you just hate successful people. Especially parents. I mean, why don't they just give what they've earned to their failed progeny. After all, fair is fair.

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  19. Gosh, what's the problem Big Meech? Did you borrow too much money, spend it, and forget that you agreed to pay it back? Golly that's pretty tough. What's it like to be that big a failure? And I'll bet that everyone but you is to blame, right? After all, you're a helpless victim. Poor baby, fear not, for I am certain that a lucrative career awaits you right around the corner. How could it not? Because naturally you, as a victim, are entitled to something for nothing.

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  20. How does anyone know whether 11:28 is a boomer?

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  21. I can't believe how ignorant some of these trolls are...

    I'm not a lawyer but as the brother of one I've seen how ridiculously out of hand everything has been. The bullies here don't realize that the state of the world was a lot different when we were going in to college than when it was when we left...

    It's easy to criticize when the economy has already crashed but before then, when stocks were skyrocketing could anyone have predicted this?

    Just keep trying, never give up on your dreams.

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  22. "Just keep trying, never give up on your dreams."

    That's exactly what law school shills tell prospective students. You always dreamed about being a lawyer? Don't listen to the scambloggers - just go for it!

    ReplyDelete
  23. "Yep, "greedy bastards" indeed. Don't you just hate successful people."

    No, I hate people who buy into the myth that success or failure is entirely self-determined and have no desire to address systemic problems.

    Also, I hate those who think students (people who seek to educate themselves) should be held to harsher standards than other unsecured debtors (retail shoppers, car deficiency balances, etc.) in bankruptcy court.

    Also, I hate those who have no sympathy for the situation of the indebted jobless since we, collectively, are the bankers/cosigners (depending on how you look at it) that stand to lose big time if the $900 billion in student loans never get paid back.

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  24. I'm the one who seconded the comments about the greedy bastard baby boomers. All I'm saying is if your boomer parents have the means to help you out financially, it would seem logical that they should. But, at least in my case, they would rather spend thousands of dollars on landscaping and going on vacations, all the while living in their big house, buying new cars every 5 years, etc., etc. while their only son slaves away trying to make a dent on his enormous student loan debt in a temporary contract position. Maybe you can call me a "failed progeny," but the fact of the matter - as another poster alluded to, is that the world is a completely different place from that of the boomer generation. My parents are high school grauduates, yet they live extremely well. It reminds me of Suzy Ormann's saying, "people first, then money, then things." Boomers, and my parents included, would rather surround themselves with a bunch of material trinkets instead of focusing on what is really important, which shold be family. Then they wonder why they're so lonely. So to sum it up, boomers, generally, suck.

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  25. "It's easy to criticize when the economy has already crashed but before then, when stocks were skyrocketing could anyone have predicted this?"

    It reminds of the saying that "everyone's a genius in a rising market."

    ReplyDelete
  26. Wow, Jdog hates a bunch of people.

    ReplyDelete
  27. The legal profession is most certainly out of touch. When you go to CLEs most of the attorneys talk about "you never live off the principal, you always live off the interest."

    I mean what is that? Are you kidding me? It's like a hobby to most of these people, if they weren't so greedy or bored or whatever it is they'd all be living off their trust funds. To them things like CLEs and bar meetings and such are like social events.

    What I don't get is how so many people can't see how toxic this is. How does anybody expect the economy to ever recover when instead of buying homes and contributing to consumer spending the average under-30 year old is paying off student loans? Consumer spending drives the economy, what was the number, 70%? How is ignoring 70% of your economic potential a smart plan for anybody?

    The government actually is now lending directly to students. This started about a year ago. How does anybody justify guaranteeing loans and then using a private lender who just collects several fees and makes guaranteed money?

    That is the problem with America now. The rich have effectively reduced any risk whatsoever and are not only not contributing to the country, they are actually being subsidized by the country! Yet there are people that still refuse to acknowledge that we have a problem with the current system and insist on blaming the victims while not realizing how they themselves are exploited victims. If you have a few crumbs more than the other guy I guess you don't even notice that the guy living in the castle is ass raping both of you.

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  28. "With most loans, if you do that and pay on time for 12 months, you're out of default. "

    Student loans can't normally be rehabbed from default. And fees for default are usually tens of thousands of dollars added to principal. So uh, six years is not going to take care of that.

    And I totally agree with the post above - when you have a trust fund, at least have the grace to understand the opportunities it affords you, and that these are not available to everyone.

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  29. http://www.newdeal20.org/2011/03/22/educating-college-graduates-so-they-can-be-unemployed-39390/

    Yup.

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  30. I'm not asking for a Big Law Job, or a Small Law Job I just want any job related to law so I can start gaining experience and work my way up. As a May 2010 graduate I see very few opportunities for beginning lawyers.

    I don't know what to do.

    ReplyDelete
  31. The problem here which no one is acknowledging is that secondary and tertiary education is overly-inflated, and as a result, anyone who aspires to obtain said education is forced to accept predatory loans.

    Law Schools should not be turning billion dollar profits. That is reprehensible, and the root of so many of these horror stories. I understand that in a Capitalistic society, individuals need to make money, but charging students a quarter of a million dollars to obtain a degree to have a chance to pass the Bar exam, and then a lottery of a chance to become employed is outrageous.

    For any whom have traversed such daunting odds and obstacles, kudos to you, but for any who are struggling, you have nothing to be ashamed of, or feel as if though you have done something wrong, because you have not--you have simply been caught in the cross-hairs of a broken system.

    The Student Loan crisis is in fact a crisis for a reason, and it is not because individuals are lazy, incompetent, unable to handle their money, or anything more than victims of an economy which has continued to increase the alleged key to success, while moving the so-called success and leaving those same believers with an exorbitant bill for the key!

    ReplyDelete

 

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