Tuesday, November 9, 2010

2.27 GPA and 151 LSAT

Ran across that subject line in a discussion on Top Law Schools.  The doomed 0L elaborated by saying:
Is there a law school in the US that will take me? Having trouble finding low end law schools. Thanks for the help!
joemoviebuff, would you mind elaborating a bit? are you insinuating that the quality of education would not be worth the investment? or that it would be tougher to get hired and find a job once out of school? or both? 
for what it's worth, i never studied or practiced for the lsat. are you currently attending law school? i suppose i'm just trying to figure out if law school is something i actually want to do. i have no doubt i would succeed in law school if i put in the effort...something i obviously did not do in undergrad   is there any way to make up a poor GPA, say with graduate school or maybe an associate's degree? or am i just SOL? 
thanks for all and any input! 
Ugh. For the record, Hardknocks and I are NOT writing for this guy.  He is basically suicidal and retarded.  It isn't because his GPA or LSAT are low.  The other 0Ls chimed in with advice:
Bypassing the question of whether you should go to these, here are some good suggestions:
John Marshall Law school in both Atlanta and Chicago, Thomas Cooley Law school in Michigan ( four locations), Ohio Northern Law School , Western New England Law School, Suffolk Law School, Florida Coastal Law School, Barry and Nova Law School, University of Baltimore might take you, Ava Maria Law school, and University of Dayton among many others.
As for whether you should go to these, some of them are actually quite good and well- respected in their areas. A lot depends on your goals. If your main goal is big law, it will be tough to get a job attending any of these schools unless you are in the top 5% of the school and preferably in the top 5-10 people. If you have lower aspirations, any of these can do the job. If you just want a legal background but don't want to practice law per se, any of these will do the trick.
The only appropriate answer for this monkeybrain is not to go.  You're asking for it, buddy.  By "it," I mean a lifetime of anguish, heartache and debt.  Also, for the record, there is a law school for everyone. But those law schools that are for you should be shut down and boarded up.  They shouldn't be part of your lifetime plan.  I would be wary if they accepted someone with your credentials.
Why do I bother reading Top Law Schools?  It really makes me sick to my stomach.


  1. A really, really, really bad idea is to go to law school with the idea that it is somehow an appropriate "default mode" fro salvaging a useless BA. Toilet bowl law schools will qualify you for dreadfully few legal opportunities, and non-law employers will nonetheless loathe your non-elite JD and look at it, and you, with suspicion, contempt and derision.

    Any questions?

  2. It is absurd, but if you are willing to go into debt you can go to law school. I could probably get my dog into a law school.

    A long time ago, before I went down the law career path, I used to think that medical schools and law schools had similar admission standards. Since then, I have learned about all the garbage law schools that will admit anyone.

    I look at some of these guys and it pisses me off that they went to Ronald McDonald Law School, and they get to call themselves lawyers. Call me a law school snob, but it devalues the degree to have all these joker law schools. As a bare minimum standard, no one should be allowed to go to law school with anything less than a 3.0 GPA, and no less than a 155 LSAT.

    We need higher admission standards.

  3. I don't think this only relates to law school. Just people going to college in general and getting bachelor's degrees devalues the value of all the degrees out there. Is it surprising that we get more and more degreed people and yet our education world rank is falling?

  4. I echo the above comments. This is the heart of the problem. Some bozo with those statistics can actually get into a law school. This would never happen in the medical profession for good reason. Law Schools need to be selective. And once people are in law school, schools need to fail people out who are not making the cut.

    I hate to be a law school snob, but really, this is just pathetic. Mercifully, the vast majority of employers recognize these ass-clown law schools and refuse to hire from them.

    Well done Angel. I can't stomach Top Law Schools.

  5. When I was at Touro, they had a one time "second chance option", which meant that a class could be taken over again. I did that with a course in Evidence.

    There was also the option to take the entire first year over again.

    I remember one poor student who actually did that. It shocked me at the time.

    I don't know if it cost the student any more tuition money. I doubt it.

    But anyway, that student is an attorney today, much to that person's credit, and I hope that person is doing well. Who knows?

    But yeah, Touro took the people with the low LSAT scores. Mine was a 155, but my bar exam scores were really, really far from passing.

    The first time I took the NY Bar, I think I scored in the low 400's. I seem to remember 415, but I know it wasn't above 450. The second time I was still under 500. The third time I think I was around 550. This was between 1996 and 2000.

    By 2000 I was literally dead broke, and all borrowed up to the hilt. Actually losing weight and hungry, with no money to even buy gas, and with a very, very unhappy wife who wanted me to bring some money into the house, by any means.

    But Re: the Bar Exam--I don't know if it is still scored the same way.

  6. Touro is a wonderful place, if you're a lawnmower. You have to wonder about a school that would hire a convicted Court of Appeals judge to teach.

  7. I think the problem is the way people raise their children. There are different kinds of intelligent and people have different aptitudes. JDpainterguy is no dope. I'm sure that he is a great "painter" or whatever else he does, but he didn't excel at passing the bar. But that is no judgment on him because, unfortunately, you won't excel at anything you put your mind to. For this 2.27/151 lemming to have no doubt that he'll do well in law school when he bombed undergrad is delusional and irresponsible. Why don't we just teach our children that they may be able to fly if they jump off a bridge. Unfortunately, your mindset is only part of what it takes to succeed.

  8. "John Marshall Law school in both Atlanta and Chicago, Thomas Cooley Law school in Michigan ( four locations), Ohio Northern Law School , Western New England Law School, Suffolk Law School, Florida Coastal Law School, Barry and Nova Law School, University of Baltimore might take you, Ava Maria Law school, and University of Dayton among many others."

    The only diploma mills on this list that have not yet received a TTR profile are JMLS in Atlanta, Ohio Northern, and University of Dayton. I will need to add these turds to the list.

  9. Yes Nando I look forward to your blasting of these diploma mill turds lol. Some good news out there as I just heard of ANOTHER law school student who dropped out after their first year! Every person saved from this harm is a victory. We have to keep blogging away with more stories, quotes, and facts that will keep people away from law school.

  10. I'm not sure strict, hard floors on numbers are the answer. Some people have undue hardship in undergraduate. Some people grow up and mature a lot during/after undergrad. A hard floor on LSAT is more justifiable than UGPA, however some people are poor standardized test-takers.

    The point is that UGPA and LSAT are correlated to 1L grades, which are (thought to be) correlated to competence in practice. By the very definition of a correlation there are those that do not strictly, or even approximately, follow it.

    It truly is up to the law school itself to decide whether they are convinced of a candidate's potential for success. USNWR rankings have skewed evaluations in favor of LSAT/GPA. However, a school has to weigh the increased rankings based on that metric with the potential decrease in ranking due to admitting candidates who may be just "good students" i.e. good test-takers and book-learners, who then go on to struggle in practice. This would decrease their "peer evaluation score" and, perhaps, median income of graduates.

    No, the fundamental problem is not a lack of hard floors on numbers, but rather too many law student seats. If Duke is convinced that someone with a 3.3/155 has what it takes, they probably do, and that's up to them. These admissions committees know exactly what they're doing. We need 1/2 the number of law seats, period. Overall admission standards will rise, of course, but there could (and should) still be people with "subpar" numbers entering the profession if they are able to demonstrate their competency and potential in another way. If Georgetown is convinced of that 3.2/158 non-URM, I'm not going to cry foul, and I'm not going to claim they're killing the profession. However, if GULC is admitting twice as many students as they can find positions for and simultaneously admitting "borderline" students, I'm suspicious that they're just trying to fill the seats to bring in the $$$. Gtown doesn't have to do much of that, qualified applicants are banging on their door, but I am concerned that the lower tiers admit persons of whom they are NOT convinced can succeed.

    In a way, I respect Cooley's old model. They kept admissions standards low but curriculum standards rigorous enough to weed out the chaff. And they didn't (couldn't) lie about the attrition rate. A 0L entered knowing that 20% of the 1L class paid tuition but flunked out. So for those individuals who don't test well and/or blew off undergraduate, this was their chance to leave that behind to some degree. Cooley's BAR passage rate was good, the tuition is cheaper than most other private schools, and graduates were getting the kinds of jobs they would expect, the 30/40/50 salary range.

    Unfortunately the ABA, in its infinite wisdom, forbade Cooley from flunking so many out. Now their BAR passage rate has tanked. Their progressive and fair model has been superseded by the forced retention of weak and/or lazy students. On the other hand, they could raise admission standards, but the whole point was to give individuals who really were competent and hardworking enough to succeed, but hadn't been able to show it, another chance to show it. So now the whole original purpose is defeated.

    And then they published their own stupid, horribly biased, joke rankings. So it's all for naught, Cooley has become a laughing stock.

  11. oh god he's totally going to do it. He's not going to listen to anyone an just dive headfirst into Barry University school of law or some shit. oh christ.

  12. I don't know if anyone is old enough to remember the old IOWA standardized tests. I took them in the 1970's.

    My mother had pulled a box of old photographs out of a closet not too long ago, and among the photos and papers and things was an old Iowa test result score sheet from 1974. I was 9 years old.

    And looking it at age 45, damn if those test results didn't show what my strengths and weaknesses were and are to this very day.

    I was ranked in the 94th percentile nationwide in language usage.

    I was in the 90th or 91st percentile in Reading conprehension.

    The New York ranking was slightly lower, and I attribute that to NY being either more populous, or more competitive.

    In all the math categories I was in the 50th percentile--below average.

    And in am area called "Maps" I was in the 36th percentile.

    I think I'll scan that sheet and post it on my little blog. For what it is worth.

    I wonder how much a person's scores and skills can change in catregories like math, reading, maps, between the ages of 9 and 22 or 27 and on.

    Puberty brings on many phyisical changes of course. As does continued growth after adolescence.

    But how much can and does the mind change and develop?

    Anyway, the results of standardized tests are worth contemplating, the LSAT for one, and the SAT as well, and maybe someone with an expertise in the field of standardized test taking can weigh in.

    Like Stephen King said: Some people just get hit harder with that old talent stick.

    @8:13. I know the ex-judge you are referring to.
    I recall that at the time of the scandal, a professor on the Touro staff seemed to be a friend of his, and delivered a brief and impromptu sermon to the class on how mental illness of a temporary and/or a permanant nature is often misunderstood, or something like that.

    But anyway, and Lastly, my SAT was a 1050 (old scoring scale) and mimicked my 9 year old Iowa test score, with my math portion below the other portion. How much I cant remember. I did have a private tutor for the SAT who showed me a few math "tricks" for the test, which I used to good advantage. I remember at least that much.

  13. "As for whether you should go to these, some of them are actually quite good and well- respected in their areas."

    What bullshit.

  14. Alton,

    "Gtown doesn't have to do much of that, qualified applicants are banging on their door, but I am concerned that the lower tiers admit persons of whom they are NOT convinced can succeed."


    Richard Sander concluded that many of the top tier schools have also accepted quite a few people they are not convinced will succeed. This is a long law review article, but there are plenty of nuggets of wisdom contained in that report.

  15. I got into a TTTT with a 3.1 GPA and 149 LSAT (ugh)...graduated in the bottom half of my class (but top two-thirds yippee!)...and passed NY and NJ bars on the first try.

    You guys will probably say I'm still doomed, but hey my story is still unwritten.

  16. It's unwritten, yes. And since you've already made the "investment," I hope that you succeed. I really do.

  17. Another great one that Nando should cover is Samford University, aka The Cumberland School of Law for those of us in the Southeast:)

  18. Have a read and tell me whether this guy has nailed our current state-of-a-generation zeitgeist.


  19. The poster should apply to Yale, Harvard, and Standford. Then sue them for ADA violations when he or she is rejected.

  20. Unless you go to a T -14 law school, then don't go ..its not worth it!

  21. Yeah, do Cumberland, Nando. When I was but a young idiot with big money aspirations, I worked as a paralegal to an illustrious Cumberland grad who was a partner in a mid sized firm making bank. But, he was the exception and not the rule. Nowdays, you're lucky to get a $35K job out of a T1.

  22. Wait, you forgot the bottom of the bottom TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT.UMass Law "Dartmouth". There's hope for you yet..at that nasty place.

  23. Um....WHY would anyone listen to a self proclaimed "paralegal without a paycheck"

    If you can't find work as a paralegal fine, but don't be the nurse telling doctors what to do.

    Let the grownups talk here sunshine.

  24. Yeah I read the paralegals blog crying about being an out of work "legal professional"

    and then rambling on smack about lawyers, lawstudents, lsat, etc.

    ........you aren't one of us..........



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