I remember her half ass attempts to reach out to solos... by doing crap like reducing membership fees. Any amount is too much to pay for an organization that reams you like a prisoner in a group shower by shipping your bread and butter abroad. Thanks for that, Lamm! Now, with Zack, maybe the ABA is turning a new leaf. However, I must dissect what he says and evaluate the effectiveness of the ABA's potential plan:The president of the American Bar Association, Steve Zack, told a gathering of law school deans and professors last week that the organization is considering requiring law schools to disclose cost and employment statistics to all accepted law school applicants. According to this story in the National Law Journal, Zack hopes the ABA’s Young Lawyers Division will consider the proposal in February.First, let's note that he's considering it. About 200+ Deans are about to start a campaign to make sure this doesn't happen because of all the usual reasons: it's "burdensome, inconvenient, impossible, etc." I call "bullshit." It's really bad for business to tell the truth about the legal industry. So, surely the Deans will weigh in on this issue. Let's see if this proposal survives that attack.
Secondly, for some reason, the transparency will only extend to accepted students. Why not the general public? Well, it's my guess that they efficacy of the information will be nil on students that feel "invested." There is a strange phenomenon among young lemmings. They seem to think that they are too far gone because they geared their college major towards going to law school, took Kaplan LSAT Prep Classes, and spent time and money in the application process. The sweat and money spent on the pre-law school process is a drop in the bucket compared to the 100K+ that you will sink in law school.
So, their "logic" (ha!) is--once you've applied and been accepted--it's way to late to actually consider the stats of your prospective school and turn back. I'm sure that Mr. Zack knows this, hence the truth is only offered to these students who wrongly consider themselves too invested to turn back. Brilliant. Add to that, the admitted students will be uniquely situated to keep the nasty secret as they will try their hardest not to mar the reputation of their future alma mater. So, this is a step in the right direction, but not a big enough step. I love how law schools, the bastion of the American Legal System, are somehow exempt from common law fraud, the consumer fraud act, and the general principle of honesty. Their ship is sinking, but I'm wondering if they plan on telling the passengers.
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Thanks for a great blog, it opened my eyes to a lot of things. What is your opinion on someone with a MD or PharmD going to law school. My situation is that I'm graduating from a pharmacy school next year and I realize that I don't like pharmacy that much and just want more options. I can make an easy $120K and up to $160K with a bit of overtime just working at your local chain pharmacy. Pharmacy is a very regulated profession, every drug, every prescription is regulated by a law, even what is put on a drug vial to how you hand a drug to a patient. With my undergrad grades, the best I can hope for is a T20 school or so unless I get lucky but I was considering going to evening law school at a very low end top 100 school. I can make $120K during the day and go to law school at night, I figure after taxes, I get to keep $80K of that. I pay $30K in tuition, I have $50K on living expenses, etc. Am I group in with the doomed since I would be graduating from a lowly law school with average grades? I figure the worst case senario is that I keep my pharmacy job and end up doing small law things on the side, like make wills... haha.. but at least I get some variety. But $100K just to get variety is a lot.
ReplyDeleteIf Betty White were to wear a transparent dress, wait wrong thread. The ABA has to represent those that have a Law job and those that want a Law job. Sometimes the former takes precedence over the latter.
ReplyDelete5:40 a.m.: a J.D. is no way to obtain variety. It's a degree that closes doors. Once you get a J.D., people suspect that you no longer want to use your other degree, whether it's an M.D., Pharm, MBA, whatever. So, it's no way to bring variety into your life. Unless a T8 has an evening program (doubtful), the degree will be essentially worthless. And you will graduate from law school with no skills, unable to do something minor like drafting a will. Do you really think drafting a will is interesting? It's not. I don't recommend it. That's my answer.
ReplyDeleteWatch this!
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7316503
To anonymous, the pharmacist. Are you joking? Have you not been reading the blogs? I have been reasonably successful for nearly 20 years in this business, and my advice...ABSOLUTELY NOT...DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL....you do not know what you are getting into. Keep working as a pharmacist, and pursue other intellectual interests on the side. You cannot imagine the difference in environment and attitudes between working as a pharmacist, doctor, nurse, dentist, etc. where you have skills that are really useful and needed and working as lawyer in some old lawyering firm (assuming you can even get a job in one these days) where you start with no useful skills and learn to be basically a leech on society. In your position, most lawyers would think you crazy to go to law school even with a full scholarship. Most of the nurses and doctors and dentists who buy lawyering degrees run back to nursing or doctoring or dentistry and cut their losses.
ReplyDeleteDear Mr. Big Pharmacist to Be: Maybe you think you'll waltz into some swank patent position at BigLaw making $160K per year. Think again. 10-15 years ago, you might have made it with a B.S. in pharmacy, but not anymore. You need a Ph.D. to even get in the door these days on the Chem/Bio side. Stay with pharmacy. If you don't like retail, go the clinical route. Bottom line is there are significantly fewer pharmacists than there are lawyers. Plus, being a pharmacist means you are portable. If you want to move to another state as a lawyer (and continue to work), well get ready to spend more money, time and aggravation passing that state's bar exam. Hopefully, you pass. If not, you can take it again and again and again. Go get your Ph.D. in some pharmaceutial area. You will have a job. I left my doctoral program to go to law school (still I have graduate degrees in the pharma sciences) and I've been working as a contract attorney for the past five years with low pay, no respect, no job security, no benefits and no means of advancing. Don't say I didn't warn you.
ReplyDeleteKeep in mind, there aren't too many degrees that you can get at the bachelor's level and walk away with starting salaries of $60,000 - $90,000 per year (depending on location). Go work in retail and save some money. Law school will always be available, but I have multiple pharmacist turned patent lawyer friends that are now out of work depsite having significant legal experience. It's a short-lived profession - you might only get 2-5 years out of a law career, whether voluntarily or involuntarily. But you will still have $150,000+ in student loan debt to pay off. At least with a pharmacy degree you can make a good income and not be burdened with excessive debt that you will be paying off the rest of your life.
ReplyDeleteWell, I guess I expected those kind of answers. As for pharmacy, it is a professional doctorate degree not a bachelors, it changed about 15-20 years ago. My goal as a PharmD/JD would be to try to work for the FDA or a drug company that wants to get a drug approved, something along those lines not a law firm. I would not be getting extra money and would probably get paid the same as if I worked as a regular pharmacist, I'm considering law for a different career path in pharmacy not to increase salary because that won't happen. Basically, that $100k law degree gets me the same pay but a different career path. Thank you everyone for your advice, it is appreciated.
ReplyDelete5:40; patent prosecutor here. What I would suggest is to start applying to all sorts of biglaw firms that do patent prosecution, and even boutique firms. Most all of them have a category in their hiring process called "Scientists and engineers" or something like that, or "technical advisors." Basically, you do the work of patent prosecution and a lawyer then reviews it before it goes out. Eventually, you'll take the USPTO exam and become a patent agent, and make essentially the same money as an attorney. With a PhD, I highly suggest you go that route, at least first. In the future, you may decide to go to law school, and I would highly *HIGHLY* recommend an evening program while you keep your day job of patent work. This is essentially the exact same path I took, and I'm very happy with my decision. I came out of law school with less than average loan burden, I gained experience while I was there, and I got to make sure I like the work before committing years and 6 figures to the process.
ReplyDeletebest of luck!
I went to law school back in the 1990s with a buddy who had an electrical engineering degree from Michigan. He was making $80K a year before enrolling in law school. At the time, Biglaw paid $86K per year. Well my buddy, who I will call "Tony," felt trapped by his career (e.g., limited upward mobility, salary capped at $150K throughout his career, etc.) and was allured by the law school employment stats and the Hollywood glamorization of Biglaw. To make a long story short, Tony graduated law school with $70K in debt, no Biglaw job, but he did land a shitlaw gig at $28K. He moved back to his mom's home and resided in the attic. Tony's pre-law school girlfriend left him for one of Tony's co-workers who was still making $110K per year by the time Tony graduated law school. Tony tried hard to get his old job back but his former employer, as well as his prior industry, shunned him like a pariah. Tony lost his $28K job (shitcanned from shitlaw) when he failed the bar exam. In fact Tony had to take the bar exam 4 times before passing. A few years ago, my law school had a 10 year reunion. Tony was a no-show. People asked around about Tony and someone, who does volunteer work, mentioned that he had seen Tony at a soup kitchen getting fed.
ReplyDeleteI often think about Tony. I am sure had Tony avoided law school, he would have been ok. Instead, law school and the JD stain destroyed this poor chap's life.
Don't try to pump yourself up making it appear that you're a "doctor" with a Pharm.D. It's only one more year of school and law firms dealing with the sciences are generally aware of that distinction. But if it gives you a hard on, continue on...
ReplyDeleteUnless you have contacts at pharmaceutical companies, you will unlikely start your career of in-house. This is where you are uninformed about the way legal hiring works in this country. Not a slight, but people who are not in the legal profession have all sorts of misconceptions about how the profession operates. Generally, you start off at a law firm, the bigger the better. As for FDA law, the vast majority of firms doing any significant work in this area are located in DC. They are also large firms, which means you need to go to a good law school, get good grades and wear the correct tassles on your loafers in order to get in the door. After a few years you would stand a better chance of getting into an in-house position at pharma. The FDA could be an easier path, but still competitive nonetheless. Keep in mind that a lot of people are trying to work for the government these days due to the alleged job stability.
ReplyDeleteA couple other things. Your scientific degree will not be valued to the extent you think it is in food and drug law. Where you attend law school will have a significantly greater impact on your job choices. Take a look at the Food and Drug department at a firm like Covington & Burling (there are other firms but this is as good an example as any) and take a look at the attorney biographies. You will not find many individuals with Pharm.Ds or any of that crap, but you will find a lot of individuals who attended law school at Harvard and Yale. Another thing, and maybe others will disagree, but there seems to be a general bias against night students. I was a day student so I don't know from personal experience, but others might want to chime in on that point.
ReplyDeleteAhhhh. Transparency. http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2010/10/at_262797_a_year_retiring_coop.html
ReplyDeleteThis proposal needs to have teeth. Require the dean's to send information requests to all graduating students inquiring about the nature of their (un)employment. Have the dean produce a report with his/her affirmation that all statements made within the report are true. Then publish the results to the public. Punish false statements with huge sanctions or stripping the school of accreditation.
ReplyDelete"...the transparency will only extend to accepted students." This is the classic bait-and-switch scam that was also used by the sub-prime mortgage originators.
ReplyDeleteFirst, the victims are presented with offers containing too-good-to-be-true numbers to get them excited about the prospect of getting their dream home/career. Later, when the victims are in a euphoric daze, they will be unable to back out when the actual numbers are revealed to them at signing time.
Well, since virtually *none* of the ABA accredited law schools even responded to the intitial questionnaires from the Law Transparency Project which was started by a couple of Vanderbilt law grads, the ABA is looking pretty silly.
ReplyDeleteWill they actually do anything? I say highly unlikely, but I guess we can hold out hope.
To the poor schmuck Pharmacist thinking about law school, don't. You have no idea how easy you have it right now; getting a JD will destroy your career forever.
At the very least, take 5 years to save money. If you still want to be a fancy JD, pay in cash and only at a T6. Otherwise you are just pissing your hard earned cash off a bridge.
There just aren't all those great jobs waiting for your pharma/jd combos like you think there are. Of course, you won't listen, but you are precluded from whining about a "law school scam" after you get your shitpaper JD. You have been warned.
I don't know why there's so much hate haha.. Just explaining that my degree is a professional degree not a phD. Not pumping up anything, I realize I have it good but I can see pharmacy headed the way of law with all these new pharmacy schools opening up. I'll just join the scam and only go to law school if I decide to teach pharmacy law at a school, all pharmacy schools need a law teacher and it's a unpopular job since you less money in academia.
ReplyDeleteA pharmD is not 1 more year of school btw
ReplyDeleteOK. I was mistaken. It is 6 years, the final of which is clinical. Just don't expect to be called doctor.
ReplyDeleteBTW, law firms don't care about your "clinical" orientation and that you have a good rapport with Mrs. Jones at the pharmacy. They care about research science.
ReplyDeleteStill wrong about how long pharmacy school is. I never asked to be called a doctor, I just wanted to clarify that I didn't have a phd but a professional doctorate. Must be tough always being so cynical and having to make yourself feel better by tearing down other..haha.. just like my narrow view of law, your narrow view of what a pharmacist dose lets me know enough.
ReplyDeleteHey, if I don't tear you down now, you will undoubtedly be torn down later in addition to having $150,000-$200,000 of non-dischargeable debt. You can thank me later.
ReplyDelete