tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post1295981333153564983..comments2024-02-23T04:59:26.907-05:00Comments on But I Did Everything Right!: Lawyer Asks Why People Are Still Going to Law SchoolAngelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07820446523257638689noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post-28027981946751673072010-09-08T20:40:56.976-04:002010-09-08T20:40:56.976-04:00Free education will bankrupt the state only if pro...Free education will bankrupt the state only if professors continue to be overpaid and underproductive.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post-71287795811784111652010-07-09T14:53:41.497-04:002010-07-09T14:53:41.497-04:00Free education will just bankrupt the state that m...Free education will just bankrupt the state that much fasterAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post-26940718670670390052010-07-09T14:21:01.401-04:002010-07-09T14:21:01.401-04:00Well said, Tax Attorney. I absolutely agree with y...Well said, Tax Attorney. I absolutely agree with you.HardKnockshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08188805912579205968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post-67578849819814315182010-07-09T00:27:35.470-04:002010-07-09T00:27:35.470-04:00I think you people are missing the point. The rel...I think you people are missing the point. The relevant point is, "do we want an America with undereducated people who reject advanced degrees due to financial rape, or do we want an America that wants its citizens to proceed with education as far as they can go?"<br /><br />Go to any guidance counselor's office in a high school--they will sell you a bill of goods that education is always profitable. Maybe that was true 30 years ago, but now it is just a business used to exploit the intelligent and ambitious. And as a country, unless we curtail free trade and the offshoring of jobs, we need educated people. But when the cost of the education exceeds its value, then how do we get there?<br /><br />The European model with free education and vigorous testing to qualify, seems the most rational to me.Tax Attorneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15588211010907327145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post-77864870298592267982010-07-06T22:13:56.738-04:002010-07-06T22:13:56.738-04:00"The idea that every victim just needs to suf..."The idea that every victim just needs to suffer in silence and let the scam continue to be perpetrated on future students is an outrage."<br /><br />I think this is an important point. People who have been victimized are often to ashamed to do anything about it. They often torture themselves over some small mistake they made; some small error in judgment, even though the person who victimized them is far more morally culpable.David Abramshttp://www.davidabramslaw.com/educationloans.htmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post-18039504479931960192010-07-06T10:16:02.679-04:002010-07-06T10:16:02.679-04:00I went to law school on student loans, "blind...I went to law school on student loans, "blind" to the russian roulette that I was playing. Luckily, I graduated 10 years ago from a state school, only had $55k in loans, and was able to find a job in my low-cost area of the country with a large regional firm. I've cut the loans in half but am still paying on them (slowly since I was able to consolidate at 3%). While things worked out for me in the end (the market was a lot different when I got out), had I known the risk I was taking at the time I don't think I would have gone to law school. <br />When I graduated, the bottom half of the class was basically screwed but the top half had decent job prospects . Now, if you aren't in very top 5-10% of your class at my alma matter, you simply don't have a job at graduation . . . going to law school in this environment is simply not worth it unless you have something lined up for you already or have a way to pay for school without loansAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post-41090641415033069152010-07-05T18:25:50.344-04:002010-07-05T18:25:50.344-04:00Eliminate law school. I learned all I needed to pa...Eliminate law school. I learned all I needed to pass the bar in my review course anyway. That way, the kids (and other new licensees) could get started in practice without the crushing debt. Actually be able to rent a space and some furniture. Or are the firms (who own the Bar Associations)afraid of actually having newbies who might be able to compete with them, absent the crushing debt?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post-50643615439023266062010-07-05T18:06:58.792-04:002010-07-05T18:06:58.792-04:00"People need to stop blaming the students and..."People need to stop blaming the students and start blaming the ABA for accrediting more law schools and school administrators who decide these outrageous tuition rates to pay their $300k yearly salary while blocking poor and middle class students from receiving an education without taking out six-figure loans."<br /><br />Amen. <br /><br />Students relied and still rely on the blatantly false statistics put out by law schools. I would not have gone to law school had my school not showed me its (fake) high employment rate and median salary for new graduates. Schools lie all day long to get students in the door and take their federal student loans. <br /><br />The feds are just as culpable for giving $40k a year in loans to anyone with a pulse for school, despite there being no jobs. When schools see that the government will back any and all prospective students, they continually raise their prices because they know Uncle Sam will keep putting up the cash. <br /><br />Law school is a racket, higher education in general is as well. The idea that every victim just needs to suffer in silence and let the scam continue to be perpetrated on future students is an outrage.Scammed Hard!https://www.blogger.com/profile/01044898077026675015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post-88536382946334715612010-07-05T11:47:46.072-04:002010-07-05T11:47:46.072-04:0011:42/11:43 pm:
Outstanding post. I take a middl...11:42/11:43 pm:<br /><br />Outstanding post. I take a middle ground on the issue of loan repayment. As I tried to explain over at Legal Nihilist, my prediction-- and hope-- is that the pain of the loans will eventually be mitigated because of hyperinflation, discharge or other factors. However, the debtors will have to redeem themselves in other ways, as you are doing: analyzing and exposing the systemic fraud, and pushing for far-reaching legal and constitutional reforms to prevent these problems in the future.<br /><br />Best Regards,<br />Whittaker<br />ricercare2001/yahooAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post-53444678539730833302010-07-05T11:27:25.267-04:002010-07-05T11:27:25.267-04:00Nothing more than a variation of the oldest Americ...Nothing more than a variation of the oldest American motto: "I got mine, now f*ck off."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post-41668258490738121612010-07-05T11:13:40.143-04:002010-07-05T11:13:40.143-04:00I would be up for a 2 year education/1 year workin...I would be up for a 2 year education/1 year working in the clinic or in an internship, but I've come to the conclusion that schools don't do this because it annoys the alumni base and they are successful at hoodwinking the students into thinking that if they don't take nothing but bar courses, they will not pass the bar.<br /><br />Even though everybody becomes annoyed at low-income clients and pro bono work, I saw for myself that attorneys don't like anything that will eat into their client base. They had started a program where I live where the county was providing legal aid to pro se filers who needed help in filling out forms. This caused a minor uproar in the legal community (under a variety of pretenses that had nothing to do with loss of clients) and the program was discontinued. <br /><br />I can't imagine that legal aid clinics are met with open arms by this same coterie, although they probably endure them simply because legal clinics have screening measures to tell if somebody really doesn't have any money and whether their case fits a specific criteria. A pro se filer may actually have the money for an attorney, but may not want one for various reasons.Chief Constable for the Areahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08824938329626712343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post-66111433352308672692010-07-05T10:56:20.806-04:002010-07-05T10:56:20.806-04:00This woman comes across as a moron.
http://www.y...This woman comes across as a moron. <br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhgbCrtTui8&feature=player_embeddedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post-66028809184473883432010-07-05T10:38:31.040-04:002010-07-05T10:38:31.040-04:00For what it's worth, I went to law school 10 o...For what it's worth, I went to law school 10 or 15 years ago and ended up with a somewhat manageable amount of debt.<br /><br />The thing is, I didn't really do my homework -- I accepted my law school's claims that it had a very high placement rate. Which was indeed the case but it was foolish to just take their word for it.<br /><br />Anyway, Angel & Hardknocks, do you mind if I link to my web site in my posts? I am an attorney in New York and I'm actually looking for clients who are victims of the education loan madness.<br /><br />Thanks, Dave<br /><br />David Abrams<br />299 Broadway Suite 1700<br />New York, NY 10007<br />212-897-5821 davidabramslaw at gmail<br />attorney advertisingDavid Abramshttp://www.davidabramslaw.com/educationloans.htmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post-720563584099921002010-07-05T09:10:48.356-04:002010-07-05T09:10:48.356-04:00The best thing the ABA and schools could do is tur...The best thing the ABA and schools could do is turn law school into a 2 year program. The fact that you have to go for 80+ credit hours, but can fill that requirement with Law and Literature and Jurisprudence of Underwater Basket Weaving is retarded. Drop it to a two year program, but require more substantive classes to graduate.<br /><br />You have a third less tuition, an extra year of working, and one less year of acquiring interest while in school. Graduates would have more choice in what job to take. Fewer would stay at big firms, trying to drink themselves to death before being promoted to service partner.<br /><br />And most importantly, all these schools claim to care about public interest, pro bono, etc. Giving students a third less debt gives them the freedom to work low paying public interest jobs years earlier.BL1Yhttp://bl1y.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post-57750744111312241492010-07-04T23:43:11.950-04:002010-07-04T23:43:11.950-04:00I don't think anyone is talking about bailing ...I don't think anyone is talking about bailing anyone out. I think the proposal is to allow the students and the government guarantor to put the risk right back where it belongs: with the banks.<br /><br />Quite frankly, while the personal circumstances of my life being over sting quite a bit more than the reality that the federal government is going to end up paying on my loans when I don't, I'm actually pretty thoroughly outraged by the reality that the government continues to be defrauded by the student lenders. Just as the law schools' publication of intentionally misleading employment statistics has abused students to get them in the door and hooked up with loans, the lenders' deception in reporting default rates gets them government guarantees for the securities they issue on the back of student loan revenue streams. Effectively, it's a fraud, from top to bottom and from the bottom back up to the top. If you know even the basics about how this industry operates, there is no point at which you can simply say that the problem lies primarily with the students who were careless in their borrowing. If you look at the institutional incentives at each level, you start to realize that student lending is not "about" lending to students so that they can improve their station in life and become valuable contributors to society. It is about commoditizing students and creating a revenue stream - by any means possible, including fraudulently reported statistics - in order to be able to issue federally guaranteed securities.<br /><br />So, it seems to me that, now that you've promised to become ever increasingly "bitter" if the government "forgives" students on their loans, you don't really understand the first God damn thing about the issue. The unavoidable fact is that you have millions of students who took out loans who - despite the reality of abuse I have described above - would like nothing more than to "make good" on them. but, doing so would not be a simple question of "applying" oneself. We're not going to BE ABLE to ever pay back our loans because the primary objective of this whole scheme was never to make us able to pay them back. That was a secondary concern, if it was a concern at all. The tax payer will be on the hook, and so, the questions are simply these: whether you - purely out of spite and your better fortune - want unwitting participants to be condemned to a life of poverty; and whether you want yet more banks to be bailed out by the federal guarantee. Congress should pass a law now allowing for the discharge of student loans in bankruptcy and removing the federal government as guarantor for these fraudulent loans - yes, after the fact.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post-10204633833362848962010-07-04T23:42:16.998-04:002010-07-04T23:42:16.998-04:00I don't think anyone is talking about bailing ...I don't think anyone is talking about bailing anyone out. I think the proposal is to allow the students and the government guarantor to put the risk right back where it belongs: with the banks.<br /><br />Quite frankly, while the personal circumstances of my life being over sting quite a bit more than the reality that the federal government is going to end up paying on my loans when I don't, I'm actually pretty thoroughly outraged by the reality that the government continues to be defrauded by the student lenders. Just as the law schools' publication of intentionally misleading employment statistics has abused students to get them in the door and hooked up with loans, the lenders' deception in reporting default rates gets them government guarantees for the securities they issue on the back of student loan revenue streams. Effectively, it's a fraud, from top to bottom and from the bottom back up to the top. If you know even the basics about how this industry operates, there is no point at which you can simply say that the problem lies primarily with the students who were careless in their borrowing. If you look at the institutional incentives at each level, you start to realize that student lending is not "about" lending to students so that they can improve their station in life and become valuable contributors to society. It is about commoditizing students and creating a revenue stream - by any means possible, including fraudulently reported statistics - in order to be able to issue federally guaranteed securities.<br /><br />So, it seems to me that, now that you've promised to become ever increasingly "bitter" if the government "forgives" students on their loans, you don't really understand the first God damn thing about the issue. The unavoidable fact is that you have millions of students who took out loans who - despite the reality of abuse I have described above - would like nothing more than to "make good" on them. but, doing so would not be a simple question of "applying" oneself. We're not going to BE ABLE to ever pay back our loans because the primary objective of this whole scheme was never to make us able to pay them back. That was a secondary concern, if it was a concern at all. The tax payer will be on the hook, and so, the questions are simply these: whether you - purely out of spite and your better fortune - want unwitting participants to be condemned to a life of poverty; and whether you want yet more banks to be bailed out by the federal guarantee. Congress should pass a law now allowing for the discharge of student loans in bankruptcy and removing the federal government as guarantor for these fraudulent loans - yes, after the fact.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post-3755820987355760642010-07-04T22:54:32.243-04:002010-07-04T22:54:32.243-04:00I can see the public loving the idea of bailing ou...I can see the public loving the idea of bailing out lawyers and doctors. That should be very popular.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post-56585696554442959232010-07-04T22:49:34.704-04:002010-07-04T22:49:34.704-04:00In general, I'd probably agree with him (excep...In general, I'd probably agree with him (except for his characterizations of an imbecilic generation...well no I agree with him there).<br /><br />But could someone explain this to me? Everyone seemed to agree that the huge bank bailout was a moral hazard regardless of your political leanings. We had to justify it using the old favorite exitus acto probus---aka ends justify the means.<br /><br /><br />Essentially the specter of what would happen if we didn't do it was too terrible to contemplate so we have to give this crippled horse running the race (ok bad example).<br /><br />So why not do the same for the students? Does having a large percentage, really a majority, of a whole generation in perpetual debt any worse for an economy than the prospect of bank failure?Demostheneshttp://outsideliesmagic.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post-40613392505611551602010-07-04T21:50:13.380-04:002010-07-04T21:50:13.380-04:00This guy had it easier. Maybe he meant that law s...This guy had it easier. Maybe he meant that law school was a dumb investment more than a decade ago, and that it is certainly a terrible decision now.<br /><br />However, this ass could have laid off painting all of us as irresponsible spendthrifts. This tactic is a favorite of ignorant 0Ls and industry apologists - just like the idiots who accuse me of going six-figures into debt when in fact I only took on another $37K for my TTT degree from Third Tier Drake.Nandohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06423524039657355134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post-68843085895168025302010-07-04T21:00:36.158-04:002010-07-04T21:00:36.158-04:00I clicked on the link to the article.
First of al...I clicked on the link to the article.<br /><br />First of all, I can't believe that the unemployment rate for attorneys is only about 3%.<br /><br />They're probably counting the unemployed by definitions that work fine for the vast majority of job seekers out there, but not for attorneys. If I want to be a secretary, I actually have to be employed as a secretary. I can't make an office out of my house and self-employ myself as a secretary. If you actually look at the numbers behind the numerous attorneys who "gave up and started their own office," you're going to find a lot of people who did a couple of wills, took a couple of court appointed case, aided in a simple divorce (no children/no property of consequence), but are still considered employed for job hunting purposes.Chief Constable for the Areahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08824938329626712343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post-22632887301412087622010-07-04T20:42:26.786-04:002010-07-04T20:42:26.786-04:00I agree with him about simply forgiving loans, but...I agree with him about simply forgiving loans, but who's askig for that? What about being able to discharge them in bankruptcy after years of making good-faith payments on them, with no hope of ever being able to make enough money to pay them off in full? <br /><br />That's what I'd like to see the scambloggers put their energy into. Instead of trying to discourage 0L's from going to law school, how about working to change the law so that all the people who've already gone to law school have at least some future chance of getting out from under the debt?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post-57302303023435884782010-07-04T19:06:41.489-04:002010-07-04T19:06:41.489-04:00Good post, and this kid is obviously an arrogant i...Good post, and this kid is obviously an arrogant idiot. I, too, was fortunate to go to a T25 state school back when tuition was around $14K/year. I was able to graduate with only $45K in debt, and even more luckily, I graduated just in time to be able to consolidate all of my federal loans at a very low interest rate. I was also fortunate enough to enter the workforce before the great recession, and although I did not end up in big law, I still make a very good salary and am able to pay back loans.<br /><br />But, unlike this assclown, I have nothing but sympathy for more recent graduates. In addition to the worst economy in 3 generations, law school tuition has risen to staggering levels. My same school now charges north of 30K for IN STATE tuition. Unbelievable. <br /><br />Also, the "I did it right and therefore the government should not help out other people because it's unfair to me" argument is pure nonsense. If that is the case, then we might as well get rid of all social welfare programs. I mean, it's not my fault someone is a drug addict, so no more federal or state funds should be allocated to drug addition rehab. Right. Got it. <br /><br />And like you said, of course there were some law students who lived beyond their means -- just like every aspect of our society. But from my experience, the vast majority of law students were responsible borrowers and were caught in a bad situation. They deserve our help.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5452025352696285200.post-3286076993849077822010-07-04T18:59:47.495-04:002010-07-04T18:59:47.495-04:00"I just want them to have to pay back what th..."I just want them to have to pay back what they've borrowed."<br /><br />O.K. Why don't you give me a job. E-mail me: newyorksolo@gmail.com.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com